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  #13801  
Old Posted Apr 1, 2025, 7:41 PM
lio45 lio45 is offline
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Originally Posted by kwoldtimer View Post
In GofC blingspeak, that would probably be Construction Canada Construction. Or, in Quebec, Construction Canada Construction.
I fully expect the actual official name to be "Maisons Canada Homes."
     
     
  #13802  
Old Posted Apr 1, 2025, 7:42 PM
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Originally Posted by New Brisavoine View Post
It's very common for people not to see what's around them. To visit the Marais and pretend there's nothing going on there is preposterous. And I go there almost every week. From young African migrants sitting around all day talking in their Sahelian languages like it's Bamako or something, to tents installed near St Paul (which makes the neighborhood dangerous for young women, as reported in the press), to tramps and homeless people everywhere, destroyed sidewalks not properly maintained, I mean please! The Marais is a shadow how what it was in 2010. It's quite notorious in Paris that residents are fleeing this area because the municipality has made it impossible for people to live there by blocking streets and removing most parking space, and it's also notorious how the store owners in this neighborhood are struggling.

So yes, a North American casually visiting might marvel at entrance gates of 17th century mansions, which don't exist in North America, and not really pay attention to the black spots in the picture all around. Not very surprising.
It's also the fact that tourists don't have any sense of relativity. Unlike local residents they don't generally have real-life experience from recent years to compare things to.

Ottawa looks and feels absolutely great when compared to Detroit. But people who experience Ottawa regularly will notice there has been a very noticeable decline in the past 3-5 years.
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  #13803  
Old Posted Apr 1, 2025, 7:43 PM
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what the Brits call "antisocial behaviours" have reached crazy high levels.
And what you call "incivilités".
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  #13804  
Old Posted Apr 1, 2025, 7:53 PM
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I think it would be interesting to get EnvisionSaintJohn (and maybe others') views on (great) replacement theory, since he's been evoking it a lot today.

Is it a repulsive notion and something that doesn't even exist except in the minds of racist conspiract theorists

OR

Something that can be subtly applauded when it leads to an outcome you desire, like for example the demographic neutralization of the political power of French Canadians in Quebec?
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  #13805  
Old Posted Apr 1, 2025, 7:53 PM
New Brisavoine New Brisavoine is offline
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Not sure this necessarily helps the cause of Canadian federalism in the long run. American corporations don't have a problem adapting to the local language in societies far smaller than Quebec and with languages way more obscure than French. So at least part of this reticence is attributable to the "they're in Canada, why don't they just speak English?" mindset.

You couldn't make that case against French in Quebec if...

(Notable that the Americans have stayed out of the Quebec language debate in the 50+ years that it's raged on. In spite of the best efforts of Anglo-Quebecers to get them involved. They've never bitten. Until now.)
I think it's two things. One, as you say, is the fact that Québec is not independent and so is assumed to be Anglophone since it's the province of an Anglophone country. But the second is the fact this is French, and I think the Americans have always had something against the French language in North America, going back to the 17th century. And even if today's Americans don't spend their time reading history books and have only a faint notion of that history, there's of course this cultural background that lingers on. If Québec was Spanish-speaking, I have a feeling there'd be less hostility. French has always been seen as snobbish, elitist, and detestable by the Anglo-Saxons (except for the tiny minority of Francophiles, which has also always existed).

In fact this hostility goes way more back than the 17th century, but all the way back to the Middle Ages and the Franco-Norman conquest of England. Let's not forget that it is the English who founded the US. Language also seems to be an obsession for the Anglo-Saxons more generally (you can see it in the way the Americans, whenever they are angry at France, always, always come back to "if it hadn't be for us you'd be speaking German now", as JD Vance said again recently... it's a typical US obsession, whereas when the French think of German invasions and occupation the issue of language is never one that matters much to us). Recently I've been reading Jonathan Sumption's extraordinary 5-volume history of the Hundred Years' War, and what struck was how the English back in the 14th century were already totally obsessed with this idea that if they didn't spend tax money to wage war on France, France would invade them and force them to speak French. The issue of language seemed very, very important to them, some language nationalists of sort, a bit like the Québécois today ironically, whereas the French (who spoke many different languages back then anyway) didn't have that obsession with language.
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  #13806  
Old Posted Apr 1, 2025, 7:55 PM
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Originally Posted by EnvisionSaintJohn View Post
I just don’t think the numbers are there among visible minorities in Quebec to vote to separate from Canada… and there’s a lot more minorities in Quebec today than there were in 1995.
Okay, but then, why are you so sure that the percentage of the Quebecois-de-souche who are okay with a slow death is the exact same as it was back in 1995?

You can't have it both ways.
     
     
  #13807  
Old Posted Apr 1, 2025, 8:01 PM
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It is funny how it is fine to say what Parizeau infamously said back in '95 if you think it's good.
     
     
  #13808  
Old Posted Apr 1, 2025, 8:04 PM
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Originally Posted by P'tit Renard View Post
I see the time horizon as even shorter. A Carney majority would be the greatest gift to PSPP and the PQ, and pretty much accelerates the push for sovereignty. Carney's evident disinterest in Quebec and the future of French, coupled with an interventionist approach to federalism and no declaration of respect for Quebec's autonomy.

I do wonder if Carney's approach to Quebec is due to the undue influence of Trudeau era Angryphone partisans pulling the strings in the background. It will be an absolute trainwreck for the federalist cause, and I'm not looking forward to it.
The Québec election is barely in a year and a half though. It might not be long enough for things to play out. If the PQ just manages to get elected (which will be complicated with the current international situation), they could benefit from a "retour de balancier" against Canada/the federation, but I would see that happening more in 2027 or 2028.

Although of course the tempo of politics can be quite fast these days, so who knows.
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  #13809  
Old Posted Apr 1, 2025, 8:08 PM
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Originally Posted by EnvisionSaintJohn View Post
Last summer… I visit Montreal semi regularly.

I highly doubt many immigrants and their children would vote for Quebec to become an independent country. I think many French speaking immigrants can get behind the anti English laws as much those laws help them advance their careers… but to vote in favour of secession from Canada? Come off it. I don’t think there’s a chance in hell the PQ will get minorities to vote in favour of independence in any sort of significant numbers. A new referendum would be dead in the water, and the PQ know this… I suspect you know this too.
Proof is in the pudding. Just before Trump's reelection, polls showed the support for independence was as high as one year before the 1995 referendum. So it doesn't look like 30 years of immigration have changed the big picture much.
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  #13810  
Old Posted Apr 1, 2025, 8:16 PM
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Originally Posted by EnvisionSaintJohn View Post
I’m reminded of this linguistic map of mother tongues in Montreal…

This one is even better. (blue is French)

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  #13811  
Old Posted Apr 1, 2025, 8:21 PM
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Originally Posted by Acajack View Post
whereas my kid is not.
How come?
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  #13812  
Old Posted Apr 1, 2025, 8:22 PM
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Originally Posted by P'tit Renard View Post
Did you just regard my nieces' feelings towards sovereignty as illogical and invalid just because it doesn't fit your political paradigm? Do you think that'll win them over to the federalist cause? Thankfully I don't trigger them the same way you would approach the situation, or the Non side is truly a lost cause.

The PQ just needs to convince a plurality of Allophones to vote Oui and they would achieve their end goal.
No, I think you extrapolating the views of your niece and placing them onto millions of others is highly illogical and unrealistic.

What percentage of Quebec is visible minorities now compared to 1995? And how much more visible minorities will reside in Quebec by the time this next referendum takes place?

A mere plurality of allophones voting for Quebec independence is a mere fantasy. The demographics simply don’t support the winning conditions needed for Quebec to separate from Canada.
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  #13813  
Old Posted Apr 1, 2025, 8:31 PM
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Yes making your independence movement less racist has a habit of bringing more of them in. Scotland is totally different but surely South American immigrants to Barcelona are more likely to speak Spanish over Catalan? Is this resentment not there?
Lol. You don't get Catalonia. "Migrants" (or immigrants) in Catalonia are... Spaniards (from Southern Spain).

That said, Acajack is a bit over his head here, because the Spanish migrants in Catalonia are not known to support the independence movement. The people supporting independence are essentially ancestral Catalans, and since the ancestral Catalans are now only half the population of Catalonia, here lies the problem, there's no majority either way.

PS: Note that unlike in Québec, in Catalonia the ancestral Catalans are more than 90% in favor of independence. So it's not like the ancestral Québécois population which is more divided. What makes Catalan independence complicated is the fact the 50% of non-ancestrally Catalan inhabitants of Catalonia are more than 90% opposed to secession from Spain.
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  #13814  
Old Posted Apr 1, 2025, 8:37 PM
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Originally Posted by Acajack View Post
I don't know about Latin Americans but people from other regions of Spain are quite cynical and scathing about people from other parts of Spain who are not Catalan but moved to Catalonia and are now Catalan nationalists or separatists.

Apparently they make up a pretty large share of the pro-independence people in Catalonia.
Nothing like the zeal of the convert. Alberta could share stories ...
     
     
  #13815  
Old Posted Apr 1, 2025, 8:39 PM
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Originally Posted by New Brisavoine View Post
Lol. You don't get Catalonia. "Migrants" (or immigrants) in Catalonia are... Spaniards (from Southern Spain).

That said, Acajack is a bit over his head here, because the Spanish migrants in Catalonia are not known to support the independence movement. The people supporting independence are essentially ancestral Catalans, and since the ancestral Catalans are now only half the population of Catalonia, here lies the problem, there's no majority either way.

PS: Note that unlike in Québec, in Catalonia the ancestral Catalans are more than 90% in favor of independence. So it's not like the ancestral Québécois population which is more divided. What makes Catalan independence complicated is the fact the 50% of non-ancestrally Catalan inhabitants of Catalonia are more than 90% opposed to secession from Spain.
Also complicated by a Constitution that makes secession illegal, in a country that had a civil war in what is still, if barely, living memory.
     
     
  #13816  
Old Posted Apr 1, 2025, 8:44 PM
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Originally Posted by New Brisavoine View Post
Lol. You don't get Catalonia. "Migrants" (or immigrants) in Catalonia are... Spaniards (from Southern Spain).

That said, Acajack is a bit over his head here, because the Spanish migrants in Catalonia are not known to support the independence movement. The people supporting independence are essentially ancestral Catalans, and since the ancestral Catalans are now only half the population of Catalonia, here lies the problem, there's no majority either way.

PS: Note that unlike in Québec, in Catalonia the ancestral Catalans are more than 90% in favor of independence. So it's not like the ancestral Québécois population which is more divided. What makes Catalan independence complicated is the fact the 50% of non-ancestrally Catalan inhabitants of Catalonia are more than 90% opposed to secession from Spain.
I am just going by what both Catalans and Castellanos have told me. That there are kids born of Charnego* parents in Catalonia that have been turned into fervent Catalan nationalists by the unified Catalan school system. (Something we don't have in Quebec BTW, where we have separate francophone and anglophone school systems. Part of the reason why so many allophones are allergic to anything Québécois. Especially those of longer establishment - pre-1977).

I'd still bet that that the percentage of young Charnego origin kids in Catalonia who support independence is higher than the percentage of young anglos in Quebec who do. In the latter case it's probably quite a bit under 10%.

*Charnego is a (not always nice) name for people from other parts of Spain who moved to Catalonia.
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  #13817  
Old Posted Apr 1, 2025, 8:45 PM
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And what you call "incivilités".
I'd say we're at a stage where it's worse than incivilités now. Migrants rubbing against women in the métro to masturbate is not an "incivilité" anymore, it's worse than that.
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  #13818  
Old Posted Apr 1, 2025, 8:46 PM
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How come?
I don't know. I know people here think I've brainwashed my kids but I tell them the history and politics and let them make up their own minds.

This kid is a soft Canadian federalist at best BTW.

All of my kids are in fact, if I had to give them labels.
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  #13819  
Old Posted Apr 1, 2025, 8:47 PM
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Originally Posted by Acajack View Post
I think it would be interesting to get EnvisionSaintJohn (and maybe others') views on (great) replacement theory, since he's been evoking it a lot today.
I think it’s a load of BS, and no I haven’t been.

Edit: please don’t assume my gender.
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Last edited by EnvisionSaintJohn; Apr 2, 2025 at 5:50 AM.
     
     
  #13820  
Old Posted Apr 1, 2025, 8:49 PM
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Also complicated by a Constitution that makes secession illegal, in a country that had a civil war in what is still, if barely, living memory.
Even if a referendum was allowed, it's far from certain the nationalists would win. Provinces inhabited in their large majority by ancestral Catalans would vote overwhelmingly in favor of independence, but the province of Barcelona, where the non-ancestrally Catalans concentrate, would vote overwhelmingly against independence.

At the end of the day, it would be 50-50. Of course the Spanish government doesn't want to find out whether it's 49.9-50.1 in favor of independence or against, so they'd rather not have a referendum at all.
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