Quebec, the French Language, and Quebecois Identity

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by mousquet

You're damn right. I was only teasing him because he's been obnoxious. But I'm actually not much into "psychologie de comptoir".

I might as well see a therapist to talk about my own little issues to them, but I'm afraid it would bore them, lol.

We say "psychologie de salon" for the same thing, BTW.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by P'tit Renard

Hilarious. I literally have nieces who are sympathetic to the sovereigist cause, raised in the Montreal area. Perhaps you don't realize I'm an Allophone, and not a pure laine.

There is a ton of intermarriage as well. One of my kids' significant others is a Montrealer with one immigrant parent and one Québécois francophone parent. This kid is pro-independence, whereas my kid is not.

[EnvisionSaintJohn]

Originally Posted by P'tit Renard

Hilarious. I literally have nieces who are sympathetic to the sovereigntist cause, raised in the Montreal area. Perhaps you don't realize I'm an Allophone, and not a pure laine.

Being sympathetic to the sovereigntist cause and voting to secede from Canada are two entirely different things.

I have no idea about your background, but I assume you’d vote non, considering you’ve described yourself as a federalist, right?

Sovereignty and Separatism are two different things. Even I can be sympathetic to the cause of Quebec sovereignty, but completely opposed to Quebec’s independence from Canada.

I just don’t think the numbers are there among visible minorities in Quebec to vote to separate from Canada… and there’s a lot more minorities in Quebec today than there were in 1995.

[P'tit Renard]

Originally Posted by EnvisionSaintJohn

Being sympathetic to the sovereigntist cause and voting to secede from Canada are two entirely different things.

I have no idea about your background, but I assume you’d vote non, considering you’ve described yourself as a federalist, right?

Sovereignty and Separatism are two different things. Even I can be sympathetic to the cause of Quebec sovereignty, but completely opposed to Quebec’s independence from Canada.

I just don’t think the numbers are there among visible minorities in Quebec to vote to separate from Canada… and there’s a lot more minorities in Quebec today than there were in 1995.

I'm sorry but it's not as black and white as you describe it to be. I'm not talking about autonomy via the CAQ's third way. I'm talking about sympathies of voting Oui in the case of a referendum vote.

Amongst my extended Allophone family in Montreal, potentially half of them could vote Oui, depending on the circumstances. Ultimately it depends on the referendum campaign itself and Ottawa's response.

Originally Posted by Acajack

There is a ton of intermarriage as well. One of my kids' significant others is a Montrealer with one immigrant parent and one Québécois francophone parent. This kid is pro-independence, whereas my kid is not.

Yes this plays a significant role as well, exactly mirrors the background of one my nieces. She has the potential to become a hardcore sovereignist after university, already cursing the PLQ at such a young age.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by P'tit Renard

As a federalist myself, this cockiness will the undoing of Canada in the long run, especially if Ottawa fails to respect Quebec's autonomy. No, the PQ and sovereignty is far from dead in the water, and things can change on a dime in Quebec. There are plenty of immigrants, especially the younger folks and 2nd/3rd generation who have fully integrated into Quebec's mainstream, and who does not view sovereignty from a purely detached ethnic lense.

If this does occur (not sure it will fully) it would mirror what has happened with independence movements in Scotland and Catalonia.

There you've had minorities coming on board earlier and in far greater numbers than in Quebec. (Though it's not true that there were no minorities in the movement in Quebec. There have always been some. Just not very many.)

[YOWetal]

Originally Posted by Acajack

If this does occur (not sure it will fully) it would mirror what has happened with independence movements in Scotland and Catalonia.

There you've had minorities coming on board earlier and in far greater numbers than in Quebec. (Though it's not true that there were no minorities in the movement in Quebec. There have always been some. Just not very many.)

Yes making your independence movement less racist has a habit of bringing more of them in. Scotland is totally different but surely South American immigrants to Barcelona are more likely to speak Spanish over Catalan? Is this resentment not there?

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by YOWetal

Yes making your independence movement less racist has a habit of bringing more of them in.

I am not sure that actual racism has varied that much over the years in the Parti Québécois. Sure, people may be more enlightened today, but that's true of other parties or movements as well.

All of my kids were born in a hospital that this guy down below got built when he was the Parti Québécois member for this area. He was first elected in 1976.


https://www.google.com/search?sca_esv=02...528&bih=712&dpr=1.25&safe=active&ssui=on

[harls]

Originally Posted by Acajack

There is a ton of intermarriage as well. One of my kids' significant others is a Montrealer with one immigrant parent and one Québécois francophone parent. This kid is pro-independence, whereas my kid is not.

My kids are pro-English, much to their mother's chagrin.

I kind of want them to not be like that.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by harls

My kids are pro-English, much to their mother's chagrin.

I kind of want them to not be like that.

You never know for sure how things will turn out. This applies to the societal level as well.

EDIT: If that persists, there is a good chance they will end up somewhere like Kanata, Barrhaven or the GTA as adults. That's generally what I've observed with kids who have that mindset here.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by YOWetal

Scotland is totally different but surely South American immigrants to Barcelona are more likely to speak Spanish over Catalan? Is this resentment not there?

I don't know about Latin Americans but people from other regions of Spain are quite cynical and scathing about people from other parts of Spain who are not Catalan but moved to Catalonia and are now Catalan nationalists or separatists.

Apparently they make up a pretty large share of the pro-independence people in Catalonia.

[EnvisionSaintJohn]

Originally Posted by P'tit Renard

I'm sorry but it's not as black and white as you describe it to be. I'm not talking about autonomy via the CAQ's third way. I'm talking about sympathies of voting Oui in the case of a referendum vote.

Amongst my extended Allophone family in Montreal, potentially half of them could vote Oui, depending on the circumstances. Ultimately it depends on the referendum campaign itself and Ottawa's response.

And I’m sorry, but I think it’s not nearly as nuanced as you seem to think it is. When it comes down to a vote to leave Canada or stay, that’s quite literally a black or white decision, no matter what sort of stipulation is made about continued association with Canada.

The hypothetical circumstances would be a third vote for Quebec to leave Canada or not… how exactly is the PQ going to convince millions of minorities in Quebec to vote for independence and vote for exchanging their Canadian rights and Canadian passports for Quebec rights and Quebec passports?

It’s just highly illogical and not at all a realistic scenario… sovereignty through other means remains Quebec’s only viable option.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by EnvisionSaintJohn

And I’m sorry, but I think it’s not nearly as nuanced as you seem to think it is. When it comes down to a vote to leave Canada or stay, that’s quite literally a black or white decision, no matter what sort of stipulation is made about continued association with Canada.

The hypothetical circumstances would be a third vote for Quebec to leave Canada or not… how exactly is the PQ going to convince millions of minorities in Quebec to vote for independence and vote for exchanging their Canadian rights and Canadian passports for Quebec rights and Quebec passports?

It’s just highly illogical and not at all a realistic scenario… sovereignty through other means remains Quebec’s only viable option.

Your entire position in TL;dr format is basically "it's perfectly safe and risk-free to poke the bear now".

I haven't ruled out the possibility that you could be right, but the thing is that if the bear does wake up one day, I guarantee it won't be fun.

[harls]

Originally Posted by Acajack

You never know for sure how things will turn out. This applies to the societal level as well.

EDIT: If that persists, there is a good chance they will end up somewhere like Kanata, Barrhaven or the GTA as adults. That's generally what I've observed with kids who have that mindset here.

Probably not with my kids. One has sights on Japan already.

One is already planning on working at the family farm in MB this summer.

Of course, my family is the outlier.

[mousquet]

Parody of Céline Dion invited to a talk show in France.

• Video Link

Old, 10/28/2006, still funny for tackling pop star burn out.
I guess poor greedy René they made so much fun of died since then.
The Americans and Vegas were also harshly targeted by the sketch, lol.
Céline would recover anyhow.

[P'tit Renard]

Originally Posted by EnvisionSaintJohn

And I’m sorry, but I think it’s not nearly as nuanced as you seem to think it is. When it comes down to a vote to leave Canada or stay, that’s quite literally a black or white decision, no matter what sort of stipulation is made about continued association with Canada.

The hypothetical circumstances would be a third vote for Quebec to leave Canada or not… how exactly is the PQ going to convince millions of minorities in Quebec to vote for independence and vote for exchanging their Canadian rights and Canadian passports for Quebec rights and Quebec passports?

It’s just highly illogical and not at all a realistic scenario… sovereignty through other means remains Quebec’s only viable option.

Did you just regard my nieces' feelings towards sovereignty as illogical and invalid just because it doesn't fit your political paradigm? Do you think that'll win them over to the federalist cause? Thankfully I don't trigger them the same way you would approach the situation, or the Non side is truly a lost cause.

The PQ just needs to convince a plurality of Allophones to vote Oui and they would achieve their end goal.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by mousquet

Parody of Céline Dion invited to a talk show in France.

• Video Link

Old, 10/28/2006, still funny for tackling pop star burn out.
I guess poor greedy René they made so much fun of died since then.
The Americans and Vegas were also harshly targeted by the sketch, lol.
Céline would recover anyhow.

There were some funny bits that made me laugh but the Québécois accent always seems very difficult for French entertainers to imitate. Here she sometimes sounds like a mix of Québécois and the Accent du Midi from Southern France. In some parts it even sounds a bit Acadien which is different from Québécois.

[New Brisavoine]

Originally Posted by dreambrother808

Why would I choose to ignore that?

It's very common for people not to see what's around them. To visit the Marais and pretend there's nothing going on there is preposterous. And I go there almost every week. From young African migrants sitting around all day talking in their Sahelian languages like it's Bamako or something, to tents installed near St Paul (which makes the neighborhood dangerous for young women, as reported in the press), to tramps and homeless people everywhere, destroyed sidewalks not properly maintained, I mean please! The Marais is a shadow how what it was in 2010. It's quite notorious in Paris that residents are fleeing this area because the municipality has made it impossible for people to live there by blocking streets and removing most parking space, and it's also notorious how the store owners in this neighborhood are struggling.

So yes, a North American casually visiting might marvel at entrance gates of 17th century mansions, which don't exist in North America, and not really pay attention to the black spots in the picture all around. Not very surprising.

[New Brisavoine]

Originally Posted by le calmar

Brisavoine's depiction of Paris sounds quite extreme, but I haven't been there in years so I can't really judge. That said, I thought about this yesterday when I saw a video of a large group of young men robbing suitcases straight out of a bus.

They were somehow able to open the baggage compartment from a tourist bus full of people and were stealing the suitcases while the bus was moving. As Acajack said, our cities are rougher and grittier than they used to be, but there was something "French" about this whole situation. You see something like this, and you just know there's a good chance it's in France.

It's not French, it's African. And it's unfortunately more and more frequent. Cases of highway robbery on the freeway going from CDG to the city center are more and more frequent (guys swarm around the taxi on scooters, break the window, grab whatever they can grab... sometime they even force the taxi to park, or the taxi driver is an accomplice, and they fully rob the passenger, as happened to a Mongolian businessman a few month ago on his way to CDG to the city center). That's why I would recommend to avoid taxis. Especially since they anyway overcharge tourists.

The Mongolian businessman who was robbed (they stole 600,000 euros from him, inside the freeway tunnel just next to the Stade de France stadium): https://www.lefigaro.fr/sports/jeux-olym...ler-600-000-euros-a-saint-denis-20231101

PS: Guys like Mousquet are also many in France. They choose to ignore or underplay what's going on, either for ideological reasons (mayor of Paris's single-issue voters in particular, those who hate cars and whose single-issue is bicycle lanes), or because they don't like to see the merde that surrounds them, which is only too human. Problem is, if you don't name the problem and only choose to minimize it for whatever reasons, you can never solve the problem to start with.

[YOWetal]

Originally Posted by New Brisavoine

IThe Mongolian businessman who was robbed (they stole 600,000 euros from him, inside the freeway tunnel just next to the Stade de France stadium): https://www.lefigaro.fr/sports/jeux-olym...ler-600-000-euros-a-saint-denis-20231101

Wow the random crime is crazy. Imagine their "luck" getting a guy carrying 600,000 Euros.

[New Brisavoine]

Originally Posted by P'tit Renard

I've been in Paris with SO at least 5 times in the last 3 years, and central Paris isn't bad if you're not purposely venturing into the problematic arrondissements, and we were out past midnight every night. Feels safer than Toronto and London (UK) at times, though Montreal is still the safest of the 4 cities.

Paris is not unsafe in the US sense. You're not going to be shot out at night, and you can safely walk in most areas. This is Europe, not North America. But the city is derelict, it's never been so badly maintained, it looks more and more Third Worldish, and what the Brits call "antisocial behaviours" have reached crazy high levels. There are also more and more cases of crimes (like those I've described here), but it's not yet at US levels (but definitely much worse than 20 years ago, and towards the worst for European levels).