[Saint John] Uptown Thread

[sailor734]

Originally Posted by bridgeoftea

I guess the feedback about the balconies was heard? I still like it, I think it'll fit in nicely with the current skyline. I do love these renders for 99 King that have traffic speeding through Kings Square or the market seemingly changed over not.

Also I wonder if 99 King tops out before the first building of Fundy Quay.

As to who tops out first I think that will be like two turtles racing.

[sailor734]

Things are looking good for the Uptown with Fundy Quay and 91 King finally underway. Now, the 800lb gorilla in the room is Brunswick Square. Right in the middle of everything how long can it continue to sit empty? If you accept that the days of the busy urban mall are gone and that it would be extremely challenging to convert to residential, what are the options?

[bridgeoftea]

It's honestly a shame that the buildings before the Brunswick Square were demolished, they'd probably be used better than the current location.

[Pugsley]

Originally Posted by sailor734

Now, the 800lb gorilla in the room is Brunswick Square. Right in the middle of everything how long can it continue to sit empty? If you accept that the days of the busy urban mall are gone and that it would be extremely challenging to convert to residential, what are the options?

I'm still not convinced the days of urban malls are over. The issue with Brunswick Square is the current owner and their decision to just let it go vacant. It wouldn't take that significant of an investment to "refresh" the interior and make it a decent shopping destination again. The problem has been the owners and from what I understand, significant upheaval inside the investment firm, their founders, and activist investor, and their board. Full story can be found here:

https://renx.ca/slate-office-reit-rebran...ates%20and%20elevated%20interest%20rates.

It is sad because you have an ideal property, located in the heart of a decent trade area, mixing office, retail, and hotel, which could have become so much more had they bothered to set up the right team and have a vision for the property. With new leadership as of this year, it will likely be sold to yet another overly-ambitious REIT that will have big plans, then sit on their ass like Slate did.

[sailor734]

Originally Posted by Pugsley

I'm still not convinced the days of urban malls are over. The issue with Brunswick Square is the current owner and their decision to just let it go vacant. It wouldn't take that significant of an investment to "refresh" the interior and make it a decent shopping destination again. The problem has been the owners and from what I understand, significant upheaval inside the investment firm, their founders, and activist investor, and their board. Full story can be found here:

https://renx.ca/slate-office-reit-rebran...ates%20and%20elevated%20interest%20rates.

It is sad because you have an ideal property, located in the heart of a decent trade area, mixing office, retail, and hotel, which could have become so much more had they bothered to set up the right team and have a vision for the property. With new leadership as of this year, it will likely be sold to yet another overly-ambitious REIT that will have big plans, then sit on their ass like Slate did.

You may have a point. Not to mention the 170,000+ cruise ship passengers who are delivered to their doorstep every year. Many during the prime fall retail season.

[bingun]

Originally Posted by sailor734

Things are looking good for the Uptown with Fundy Quay and 91 King finally underway. Now, the 800lb gorilla in the room is Brunswick Square. Right in the middle of everything how long can it continue to sit empty? If you accept that the days of the busy urban mall are gone and that it would be extremely challenging to convert to residential, what are the options?

The ownership debacle needs to be resolved first, as others have said, and until someone with a realistic plan or vision is in place, it will continue to deteriorate.

If it were me, I would focus on the second-floor level that is part of the pedway system. The city is attempting improvements at the city market, and Fundy Harbour Group has renovated the units further down, and Market Square isn't doing too terribly, so I think the pedway will have consistent foot traffic.

I would offer shorter-term leases at reduced rates to try to get the occupancy back up and ensure the few remaining businesses are retained (Scotiabank, Lawtons, Tim Hortons).

I don't think there is any hope of returning retail units to the third level any time soon. Perhaps it could suit other businesses like small offices, medical services, etc.

The food court has a lot of competition, and I think it will be challenging to bring back any of the major fast food chains.

[bingun]

In today's Growth Committee meeting, there was a brief update on the city market. The start was cut off, so I missed some information.

They are continuing to look for vendors to fill the vacant units and will be launching a social media campaign shortly.

No dates were mentioned, but The Wild Carrot's new unit is progressing, and flooring will be going in soon.

They then mentioned that Chicken By Felix is next in line for a 'fit up' once the Wild Carrot is complete. I am unsure if that means they would move to The Wild Carrot's current unit or stay where they are.

They are also planning a 'fit up' of the Infusion Tearoom unit. I didn't even realize that it was still open, or is that vacant?

[KnoxfordGuy]

Originally Posted by bridgeoftea

It's honestly a shame that the buildings before the Brunswick Square were demolished, they'd probably be used better than the current location.

Agree 110%. It would be just as vibrant as the other side of the street. So much lost for the physical realm and retail aspects.

[Pugsley]

Originally Posted by KnoxfordGuy

Agree 110%. It would be just as vibrant as the other side of the street. So much lost for the physical realm and retail aspects.

Sadly, many of those buildings were in severe disrepair back in the day. It was easier to demolish them and build new than it was to restore them. That, and it wasn't the era to salvage buildings as "urban renewal" was seen as the way to revive downtowns. Which, it actually did...until the latest owners looked at is as a piece of real estate that would appreciate over time - instead of a strategic investment that could generate revenue.

Brunswick Square actually was the catalyst for lots of new development in the Uptown. One could argue that had it not been built, we'd have never seen Market Square, the Hilton, the convention centre, AquaticsCentre, the pedway system and the arena. So, it really was a catalyst for growth.

[KnoxfordGuy]

I remember walking through it in 2011 and being very impressed at how busy it was and vibrant for a city of 70,000 people. Felt "big city".

[bridgeoftea]

Originally Posted by Pugsley

Sadly, many of those buildings were in severe disrepair back in the day. It was easier to demolish them and build new than it was to restore them. That, and it wasn't the era to salvage buildings as "urban renewal" was seen as the way to revive downtowns. Which, it actually did...until the latest owners looked at is as a piece of real estate that would appreciate over time - instead of a strategic investment that could generate revenue.

Brunswick Square actually was the catalyst for lots of new development in the Uptown. One could argue that had it not been built, we'd have never seen Market Square, the Hilton, the convention centre, AquaticsCentre, the pedway system and the arena. So, it really was a catalyst for growth.

Good point! And honestly I love using the pedway system especially in the winter time when going to Hockey Games / Dinner etc. I do think it's really well laid out connecting to hotels / market etc.

Fingers crossed it can get revitalized in the future.

Interesting point about the buildings before it being decrepit. I do tend to forgot that during that urban renewal period, nobody thought to restore old buildings and keep the character and history. Seems not till recently that it's a more accepted approach.

Although as much as the churches in Saint John probably don't have the numbers they used too. It is a shame to see those beautiful architecture works fall into disrepair and will eventually be tore down like Gothic Arches or the one on the west side.

[Pugsley]

Originally Posted by bridgeoftea

Interesting point about the buildings before it being decrepit. I do tend to forgot that during that urban renewal period, nobody thought to restore old buildings and keep the character and history. Seems not till recently that it's a more accepted approach.

Luckily for Saint John, the city didn't see the same degree of population growth and expansion as say Toronto, Calgary, or Vancouver during that era (1965-1985). As a result, we still have a significant percentage of heritage architecture in the city core. Not necessarily because we were anti-development...but rather we didn't have the demand during the bulldoze and build eras which eliminated most of the heritage structures in other cities.

Today, heritage architecture is seen as a positive and highly-attractive. People visit and move to cities with higher-concentrations of interesting and historic architecture. Which is great for Saint John! We've come a long way in restoring many of these heritage buildings for new uses and I suspect we will see even more in the coming years. I know some on here would love to see new shiny towers everywhere, but the truth is that we have a very unique city and urban fabric many people find highly-desirable as-is.

[EnvisionSaintJohn]

I don’t want to see new, “shiny” towers necessarily… I think neo art deco mid rises and high rises would better suit the architecture we already have, but maybe shiny glass towers could also look good in some instances too.

If Brunswick square was such a catalyst for growth, so could high rise developments be in the south end and other parts of the central peninsula. However, I think the people on the heritage development board would oppose high rises that might cast shadows on heritage areas, which would be pretty anti development and anti progress. There’s definitely a way we can embrace high rise developments that add to the skyline and built environment of the city, without taking away from the historic architecture that makes Saint John, Saint John. Protecting buildings from demolition is a lot more important than protecting them from shadows.

[EnvisionSaintJohn]

Originally Posted by sailor734

Things are looking good for the Uptown with Fundy Quay and 91 King finally underway. Now, the 800lb gorilla in the room is Brunswick Square. Right in the middle of everything how long can it continue to sit empty? If you accept that the days of the busy urban mall are gone and that it would be extremely challenging to convert to residential, what are the options?

What’s the main impediment to converting Brunswick Square to residential… plumbing?

Perhaps it would be easier to convert to residential if it was built up to the 36 storeys it was designed to accommodate?



Obviously it would look a lot better with a modern facelift, but building it up to its designed height capacity has always seemed like the logical step in dealing with “fixing” Brunswick Square. If it was a 36 storey building with 20 floors of residential on top of the offices and mall… I think it would no longer be considered a “dead mall with hundreds of people living on top of it. I don’t know how many floors would be needed to accommodate an IMAX, (im guessing at least 3), but an IMAX would be a pretty ideal anchor tenant.

[Pugsley]

That's an interesting visual but I don't think it will happen. Firstly, the owners.

That said, I don't disagree with your desire to see more high-towers with residential. That said, I think it starts with a crawl-walk-run approach.

Crawl - Figure out how to make Brunswick Square and Market Square viable locations again with current infrastructure - this just requires new ownership and a vision with proper investment.

Walk - Once we have these two sites bringing in people, look into expanding greenfield spaces in the downtown with mid-rise developments - like the ones we are seeing today.

Run - Once we see enough inbound investment and interest in the Uptown (AKA a Full Brunswick Square and a growing investment into the area), then you can start talking about 20-floor towers in areas of the DT.

My experience is that a single high-rise residential development will not spur development in the other areas. You need a balanced approach. Nobody will live in a 20-floor tower if they don't have amenities near them.

So, Crawl, walk, run.

[jonny golden]

What’s the main impediment to converting Brunswick Square to residential… plumbing?

Perhaps it would be easier to convert to residential if it was built up to the 36 storeys it was designed to accommodate?

Calgary was facing the dilemma of vacant office space downtown with the downturn in the economy and the pandemic. They had/have millions of sq. feet of vacant office space. Their solution? Convert it to residential.

Here's an interesting recent story summarising the results so far:

https://renx.ca/calgarys-downtown-strategy-yielding-big-results

[bingun]

I walked past the smaller retail unit under the Wellington building adjacent to Abuelitas. It no longer had the for lease sign in the window, and the windows themselves were covered up. I didn't see any indication of what was going on there, but I imagine we should expect something soon.

[darkharbour]

Originally Posted by bingun

I walked past the smaller retail unit under the Wellington building adjacent to Abuelitas. It no longer had the for lease sign in the window, and the windows themselves were covered up. I didn't see any indication of what was going on there, but I imagine we should expect something soon.

My understanding from some folks in the community is that it will be a constituency office

[bingun]

From their Facebook, Vegolution is finally calling it quits. I can't say I am surprised.

Come on in this weekend.. unfortunately it will be our last 😞 we may run out of some things and we may limit seating(6 hands per service) but we will be here 11-8pm Friday and Saturday and yes brunch is still on Saturday 11-3!! Take out may not be available depending how busy.

A huge thanks to all the staff who have worked here especially Krista, Lacey and Jeff for sticking with us until the end, also our amazing regulars who helped us get this far (almost 7 years)!! And of course all the people far and wide that gave us a try.

Keep watching our Facebook page as I’m sure you haven’t seen the last of us yet!! Thank you all!! Keith, Sarah and Nova whom you’ve all watched grow. ❤

[sailor734]

Originally Posted by bingun

From their Facebook, Vegolution is finally calling it quits. I can't say I am surprised.

I've never been there (I'm more of an old fashioned diner kind of guy) but it's always sad to see a small business shutdown. Maybe someone will open Reggie's 2.0?

Hard for lunch places to thrive uptown with offices still not full Mon-Fri and Brunswick Sq mall sitting empty.