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  #1321  
Old Posted Mar 23, 2025, 8:07 PM
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Originally Posted by madog222 View Post
He's attempting to say Translink wastes money.
I would imagine this location is chosen due to being close to electric substation; however, Burnaby's locations is also near major sub station.
It's just dumb how they pretend today that this area requires major seismic investments, like they didn't know that from the very beginning.
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  #1322  
Old Posted Mar 23, 2025, 8:14 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by madog222 View Post
He's attempting to say Translink wastes money.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lexus View Post
...It's just dumb how they pretend today that this area requires major seismic investments, like they didn't know that from the very beginning.
Yes, I figured that was the case, but I thought I'd give them a chance to clarify their perspective. As for the seismic standards, TransLink bought the land in 2012. The Daily Hive article linked in the original post describes a number of factors beyond Translink's control that have impacted the cost since then:
  • inflation in the prices for construction materials, labour, and equipment
  • changes to seismic and structural design required by the 2023 update to the BC Seismic Code
  • buckling-restrained braces to meet the new seismic standards
  • flood protection wall along the foreshore is more complex than preliminary geotechnical information suggested
  • unexpected site conditions requiring removal of contaminated soil, debris and buried foundations
Also, to quote from the article:
Quote:
With a growing shortage of available industrial land for new development in Metro Vancouver, there are growing calls from the development industry to encourage more vertical industrial projects. This bus depot represents the region’s largest example to date of a vertical multi-level industrial development.
Don't get me wrong, I have no problem with critical assessments of TransLink or any other government body. It's our money on the line and I'd like to see it spent as wisely as possible. I take issue with simplistic posts such as the one I originally responded to, which basically insinuates that TransLink is building a luxury base on beautiful waterfront property. If that's not what they intended, they're more than welcome to correct me.
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  #1323  
Old Posted Mar 23, 2025, 9:00 PM
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Originally Posted by djmk View Post
like ASAP. But i don't think anyone on the north shore expects anything to happen
We're in an election now. The theme of this year's election seems to be trade and transportation. It would be awfully nice to see some money thrown at harbour crossings.

(Unfortunately, according to Canada 338 all 3 North Shore ridings are projected to be LPC locks so there might not be any promises made.)
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  #1324  
Old Posted Mar 24, 2025, 1:06 AM
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Originally Posted by Lexus View Post
It's just dumb how they pretend today that this area requires major seismic investments, like they didn't know that from the very beginning.
I imagine that it's costing them less to prepare this site than they reaped from selling the Oakridge transit centre. It's Vancouver, the only cheap land is land that nobody else wants - and even that isn't all that cheap.
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  #1325  
Old Posted Mar 24, 2025, 2:39 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lexus View Post
I would imagine this location is chosen due to being close to electric substation; however, Burnaby's locations is also near major sub station.
It's just dumb how they pretend today that this area requires major seismic investments, like they didn't know that from the very beginning.
The Hamilton Transit Centre (18 acres/300 conventional buses) cost $136 million in 2017.

https://www.urban-transport-magazine.com/en/bus-electrification-a-comparison-of-capital-costs/

In 2020 they said the feeder cable cost was around $1 million per kilometer from the substation to the depot substation.

https://www.urban-transport-magazine.com/en/bus-electrification-a-comparison-of-capital-costs/

https://www.translink.ca/-/media/transli...et_transition_plan_update_2021_01_18.pdf
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  #1326  
Old Posted Mar 24, 2025, 5:46 AM
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How many Transit Depots we up to and when will we run out of letters for them?
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  #1327  
Old Posted Mar 24, 2025, 4:48 PM
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Originally Posted by Migrant_Coconut View Post
Again, Vancouver's population is growing, and no service cuts have been announced. Anything more than just hunches backing this up, or is this sour grapes over not getting a pet project?
According to the latest pop estimates released just a week ago, BC grew by just 3,000 in the entire 4th quarter of 2024 which is 1/11th the rate as the same quarter in 2023. It, like Canada itself, is expected to have population decline in 2025. Ottawa is expecting the population across Canada to decline by 77,000 this year which will mark the first time since Confederation we have had a decline. We are taking in far fewer immigrants this year at about 375,000 BUT we will see many more people leaving ie TFW, bogus refugees, and students...........the demographic that is most reliant on transit.

No, there hasn't been a reduction in service YET. Translink has, however, made it very clear that major cuts are coming along with higher fares if they don't get a bailout in their operational costs by Victoria and/or Ottawa. Newsflash.........both gov'ts have clearly stated that no such bailout is coming. Also, due to our economic war with Trump, anyone who thinks that the economy is not going to take a major hit this year clearly needs professional help.
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  #1328  
Old Posted Mar 24, 2025, 6:52 PM
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Originally Posted by ssiguy View Post
- snip -
Somebody forgot to tell Vancouver. BC as a whole is a different thing, but even they expect the population to jump by almost 50%.

We've been over the student angle, and you're grossly exaggerating the drop - there's 100k international students at most in Vancouver, and TransLink has over 100m riders. Those groups depend on TransLink, but TransLink doesn't depend on them.

And a bailout is almost inevitable since it's an election year - BC Transit's already received a $128 million rainy day fund. Save the "sky is falling" stuff for cable news.
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  #1329  
Old Posted Mar 24, 2025, 7:48 PM
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Taking into account the birthrate and aging population.

Quote:

B.C.’s population set to hit 7.9 million by 2046, report forecasts

British Columbia’s population is forecast to hit 7.9 million people by 2046, according to new numbers released by the provincial government on Tuesday.

The data, produced by BC Stats, anticipates a 44-per cent growth from the current population of 5.5 million in the next 23 years.

The BC Stats report found the surge in population is being driven in part by higher federal immigration targets.

The majority of growth in the coming decades is forecast to be concentrated in the Lower Mainland/ Southwest region of the province, according to BC Stats.

That region’s population is forecast to more than double to 4.9 million people by 2046 — driven primarily by migration. Between 2016 and 2021, it found, 78 per cent of new immigrants to B.C. settled in Metro Vancouver.
https://www2.gov.bc.ca/assets/gov/data/s...taining_growth_population_demography.pdf
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  #1330  
Old Posted Mar 24, 2025, 7:51 PM
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Originally Posted by Migrant_Coconut View Post
...We've been over the student angle, and you're grossly exaggerating the drop - there's 100k international students at most in Vancouver, and TransLink has over 100m riders.
The population of Canada is only 44 million...

You're mixing numbers of people with annual ridership, which is apples and oranges. On a daily basis the number of boardings is in the 300,000+ range, and 100K students is not an insignificant number compared to that. But I'm sure a lot fewer than 100K of those students are part of the daily boarding stat.

There's going to be an effect, we're just going to have to wait and see exactly how significant it is.
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  #1331  
Old Posted Mar 24, 2025, 8:40 PM
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Originally Posted by aberdeen5698 View Post
There's going to be an effect, we're just going to have to wait and see exactly how significant it is.
My bad, mixed up the zeroes. TransLink's peak ridership was 451 million/year, which works out to 1.2 million/day.

Point is, even during the lockdown in 2020, ridership was at ~600k/day, and three years later it was back to seven digits (1.06 million), so unless ssi is insinuating that we have 400k-600k students/refugees/temp workers living in the metro, IDK where the "we're doomed" crap is coming from. I'd be genuinely shocked if the dip exceeds 10%.
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  #1332  
Old Posted Mar 24, 2025, 8:56 PM
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Originally Posted by jollyburger View Post
Taking into account the birthrate and aging population...
That might be out of date since the report is from January 2024. IIRC there were reductions in the immigration targets last year.
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  #1333  
Old Posted Mar 25, 2025, 5:32 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Migrant_Coconut View Post
My bad, mixed up the zeroes. TransLink's peak ridership was 451 million/year, which works out to 1.2 million/day.

Point is, even during the lockdown in 2020, ridership was at ~600k/day, and three years later it was back to seven digits (1.06 million), so unless ssi is insinuating that we have 400k-600k students/refugees/temp workers living in the metro, IDK where the "we're doomed" crap is coming from. I'd be genuinely shocked if the dip exceeds 10%.
My figures were for Millenium/Expo line Skytrain boardings, which seemed most relevant for discussing the impact of potentially fewer student trips.
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  #1334  
Old Posted Mar 25, 2025, 7:33 AM
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Originally Posted by aberdeen5698 View Post
My figures were for Millenium/Expo line Skytrain boardings, which seemed most relevant for discussing the impact of potentially fewer student trips.
Sure, but then consider that as of 2025, pretty much every post-secondary in Vancouver requires at least one bus connection (yet not necessarily a SkyTrain connection).
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  #1335  
Old Posted Mar 25, 2025, 4:15 PM
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Originally Posted by Migrant_Coconut View Post
Sure, but then consider that as of 2025, pretty much every post-secondary in Vancouver requires at least one bus connection (yet not necessarily a SkyTrain connection).
Nothing's perfect, but I think that using both Skytrain AND bus boardings is going to result in overcounting. Ideally you'd have a "trips" stat rather than just boardings.
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  #1336  
Old Posted Mar 25, 2025, 5:59 PM
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Originally Posted by aberdeen5698 View Post
Nothing's perfect, but I think that using both Skytrain AND bus boardings is going to result in overcounting. Ideally you'd have a "trips" stat rather than just boardings.
I don't think boardings are particularly helpful if we're trying to argue the system use is not declining. As the connections, and the services get more sophisticated (rapid buses, new SkyTrain etc) then boardings can go up as riders transfer more, but ridership and revenue can still be falling.

You can see how that is playing out in the GTR transit system where their ridership is down from 2023 to 2024, although the number of boardings is up. That's a transit system that's in some trouble and seeing reductions in use.

TransLink uses the same definitions as GTR, but our ridership is up between 2023 (233.2m) and 2024 (240.9m) and January 2025 was higher than January 2024, so there's no sign of any contemporary collapse in ridership.

My limited contact with overseas students in Vancouver isn't with them riding transit - they're all riding e-scooters or Cloud E-bikes.
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  #1337  
Old Posted Mar 25, 2025, 7:43 PM
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Originally Posted by Migrant_Coconut View Post

Point is, even during the lockdown in 2020, ridership was at ~600k/day, and three years later it was back to seven digits (1.06 million), so unless ssi is insinuating that we have 400k-600k students/refugees/temp workers living in the metro, IDK where the "we're doomed" crap is coming from. I'd be genuinely shocked if the dip exceeds 10%.
If you don't agree with me then fine but don't bring up COVID as a comparison. You cannot compare changing demographics to a once in a century global pandemic. That is a false analogy and you know it.

Ottawa is not going to ride in and bail Translink out as that would automatically mean every other system would have to get bailed out as well and with the economic head wins we are facing, an already sky high deficit, and massive rearmament bills, Ottawa won't have the money. Actually my bigger concern is over the medium to long-term as such shortfalls will result, as Translink has said, in lower service and higher fares which results in even lower ridership and revenues and hence even worse service/higher fares in the years to come.........the dreaded transit death spiral.
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  #1338  
Old Posted Mar 25, 2025, 11:41 PM
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Originally Posted by ssiguy View Post
If you don't agree with me then fine but don't bring up COVID as a comparison. You cannot compare changing demographics to a once in a century global pandemic. That is a false analogy and you know it.

Ottawa is not going to ride in and bail Translink out as that would automatically mean every other system would have to get bailed out as well and with the economic head wins we are facing, an already sky high deficit, and massive rearmament bills, Ottawa won't have the money. Actually my bigger concern is over the medium to long-term as such shortfalls will result, as Translink has said, in lower service and higher fares which results in even lower ridership and revenues and hence even worse service/higher fares in the years to come.........the dreaded transit death spiral.
Nobody - except maybe you - expects Ottawa to support the operating costs for TransLink. That's the Province's job, and the Mayor's Council have been on the ball in requesting a report on the consequences of not having a clearer medium term funding source to ensure future levels of service are as good, or better, than what we have today.

COVID has relevance because the disruption it caused to travel patterns are still affecting ridership, and revenue. TransLink saw about 10% fewer boardings in 2024 than in 2019, so it still hasn't recovered to the level of activity before the pandemic. That's not a uniquely Vancouver problem, most of Canada's larger transit systems have seen similar, or greater reductions. The TransLink ridership numbers have steadily gone up since the 2020 low point, and assuming you're wrong about a collapse because many riders are overseas students who won't be here any more, it's likely that Translink's ridership will be close to 2018 and 2019 next year.

COVID also had an impact because fares were frozen (and the province made up the shortfall), so they haven't risen with inflation since 2019. And driving has decreased, so gas purchases have gone down, so the gas tax to Translink is less. Add in the increased adoption of EVs, and obviously a funding solution has to be found that acknowledges those changes.

TransLink had a budget surplus of $50.5 million in 2024. Currently they think there could be a $72 million operating budget deficit this year. On a total operating budget of $2.5bn, that's not a 'sky is falling' number. If the provincial government was conservative, that might cause problems. It seems more likely that the existing provincial government will step up, if necessary, to maintain current service levels.
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  #1339  
Old Posted Mar 26, 2025, 12:03 AM
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Originally Posted by ssiguy View Post
- snip -
I respect that you may personally know people who've stopped taking the bus, but that's not representative of the whole metro.

What IS representative is that TransLink has more or less recovered from the pandemic - Vancouver currently has the third-highest ridership on the continent and counting - and just needs a rounding error's worth of funding to make up the difference.
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  #1340  
Old Posted Mar 26, 2025, 2:27 AM
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Then I guess everything is just honky-dorky and there is no cause for concern and the operating deficit will, as Trudeau stated, just take care of itself.

I don't know why I thought that a faltering economy, rising unemployment, a shrinking population, an erosion of 2 key rider demographics, and higher fares would result in lower ridership. Obviously, if I had given the issue more thought I would see that such changes will continue to see ridership climb to ever new heights. Silly me.
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