DENVER | Main Development Thread #7

[mhays]

That looks great.

I didn't realize the NWSL got that sort of attendance, but it does. San Diego was tops last year at 19,575 on average, with Portland, DC, Utah, LA, KC, and SF also in the five figures. The lowest was North Carolina at 6,362.

That said, it seems wasteful to not double up at the Rapids' stadium, despite its terrible non-transit-friendly location.

[wong21fr]

Originally Posted by mhays

That looks great.

I didn't realize the NWSL got that sort of attendance, but it does. San Diego was tops last year at 19,575 on average, with Portland, DC, Utah, LA, KC, and SF also in the five figures. The lowest was North Carolina at 6,362.

That said, it seems wasteful to not double up at the Rapids' stadium, despite its terrible non-transit-friendly location.

I'm hoping that this facility provides opportunities to host other sports such as the upcoming women's professional rugby team and (maybe) a men's team should MLR ever gets it act together and brings a team back to Denver.

[DenvertoLA]

Can anyone explain to me why Dicks Sporting Goods Park isn't sufficient? It has 18,000 seats. This seems redundant and looks like huge waste of resources.

[Fritzdude]

Originally Posted by DenvertoLA

Can anyone explain to me why Dicks Sporting Goods Park isn't sufficient? It has 18,000 seats. This seems redundant and looks like huge waste of resources.

Why are there multiple restaurants in town? Bottom line, if both locations can create positive cash flow, then why not invest? Besides, it’s all private funds, unlike Empower Field and it will be used to anchor other developments that will be a tax source for Denver, not Commerce City. Plus, it is a great use of land that is seeping radiation as it’s preferable to have part-time use rather than long-time residents.

[mhays]

If they both succeed financially, ok, though I'm guessing that's a tall order.

There's a flaw in the restaurant point. The region routinely fills hundreds of restaurants simultaneously. But games can be scheduled so it never fills more than one soccer stadium at a time.

[TakeFive]

I vote for this as the best response (so far)

Originally Posted by Fritzdude

Why are there multiple restaurants in town? Bottom line, if both locations can create positive cash flow, then why not invest? Besides, it’s all private funds, unlike Empower Field and it will be used to anchor other developments that will be a tax source for Denver, not Commerce City. Plus, it is a great use of land that is seeping radiation as it’s preferable to have part-time use rather than long-time residents.

7Denver News had some good anecdotal coverage

The announcement for the stadium made its way along South Broadway to Kerry O'Brien, the owner of Bar 404. "When a stadium comes along like this, other things come as well... apartments, maybe more restaurants and bars," said O'Brien.

Alvidrez doesn't believe parking will be an issue with the stadium's proximity to public transit. Alvidrez told Denver7 that the Santa Fe Yards area has always lacked connection. She thinks this project will create that connection not only between businesses but within the community.

"Soccer is like such a special thing. It crosses cultural barriers. It crosses language. So it's really a special opportunity to unite a diverse district," she said.

[COtoOC]

Originally Posted by DenvertoLA

Can anyone explain to me why Dicks Sporting Goods Park isn't sufficient? It has 18,000 seats. This seems redundant and looks like huge waste of resources.

I was wondering the same thing. I saw the new women's team stadium in KC recently that they built downtown while they have a men's stadium far out in the 'burbs. Do seasons cross over making it difficult to schedule games if both teams used the same stadium?

[mishko27]

Originally Posted by COtoOC

I was wondering the same thing. I saw the new women's team stadium in KC recently that they built downtown while they have a men's stadium far out in the 'burbs. Do seasons cross over making it difficult to schedule games if both teams used the same stadium?

It's about the additional revenue stream that comes with owning your stadium - not only are you not renting a facility, but you receive all the profits from concessions, merch sales, etc., rather than leaving a percentage to the owner of the stadium. In KC, despite smaller attendance due to the capacity of the purpose built women's team stadium, the team made the most money ever during their first season in said stadium.

Also, our metro is somewhere around 3.5 million people. We can fill two soccer stadiums even if the games were at the same time - that's mere 32,000 people. And I believe that the fan bases are quite different for the two, although there will definitely be a crossover.

In any case, the stadium looks fantastic, is in a great location (unlike —'s), has access to one of the busiest transit stations in the city, it's close to both popular, and up and coming neighborhoods. This is a massive win for the city.

[wong21fr]

Originally Posted by DenvertoLA

Can anyone explain to me why Dicks Sporting Goods Park isn't sufficient? It has 18,000 seats. This seems redundant and looks like huge waste of resources.

Does the Robert Cohen want the NWSL playing second fiddle to the Rapids? Probably not given that his ownership group wouldn't be able to conduct any real estate development to unlock further revenue streams along with concession and other sales. Look at the LA Chargers sucking wind compared to the Rams.

Plus, —'s location — for most of the metro area- unless you happen to be located in the neighborhood right next to it and can walk to events. This is probably one of the main reasons that Kroenke hasn't pushed harder on the development front out there as the stadium alone isn't enough to drive an entertainment district. Want to do a ton of residential development similar to what was done in Central Park? Sure. Want to build Commerce City's longed-for downtown? That's a bit more challenging.

[DenvertoLA]

Originally Posted by wong21fr

Does the Robert Cohen want the NWSL playing second fiddle to the Rapids? Probably not given that his ownership group wouldn't be able to conduct any real estate development to unlock further revenue streams along with concession and other sales. Look at the LA Chargers sucking wind compared to the Rams.

Plus, —'s location — for most of the metro area- unless you happen to be located in the neighborhood right next to it and can walk to events. This is probably one of the main reasons that Kroenke hasn't pushed harder on the development front out there as the stadium alone isn't enough to drive an entertainment district. Want to do a ton of residential development similar to what was done in Central Park? Sure. Want to build Commerce City's longed-for downtown? That's a bit more challenging.

The location of —'s is inconvenyant, but the complex has around 23 fields! There is no way they could get close to that in an ideal location. To me, having the city spend $ building an offshoot from the A-line to —'s, and then a major up grade to the exsisting stadium seems like a more resource effecient option. but what do i know lol

[wong21fr]

Originally Posted by DenvertoLA

The location of —'s is inconvenyant, but the complex has around 23 fields! There is no way they could get close to that in an ideal location. To me, having the city spend $ building an offshoot from the A-line to —'s, and then a major up grade to the exsisting stadium seems like a more resource effecient option. but what do i know lol

But those are the sports fields that provide for exactly nothing for the game day experience at the stadium- just for the Phish concerts when they become an open-air drug market.... or so I've heard. Other than that, it's for junior league soccer tournaments which isn't exactly a banger of an economic catalyst.

But I do like the fireworks.

[laniroj]

Originally Posted by mhays

That looks great.

I didn't realize the NWSL got that sort of attendance, but it does. San Diego was tops last year at 19,575 on average, with Portland, DC, Utah, LA, KC, and SF also in the five figures. The lowest was North Carolina at 6,362.

That said, it seems wasteful to not double up at the Rapids' stadium, despite its terrible non-transit-friendly location.

Maybe Kroenke has a trick up his sleeve and is planning to swap elitches with the rapids stadium and then "rent" space at this new NWSL stadium...

[laniroj]

Originally Posted by Fritzdude

Why are there multiple restaurants in town? Bottom line, if both locations can create positive cash flow, then why not invest? Besides, it’s all private funds, unlike Empower Field and it will be used to anchor other developments that will be a tax source for Denver, not Commerce City. Plus, it is a great use of land that is seeping radiation as it’s preferable to have part-time use rather than long-time residents.

Isn't this in the Gates urban renewal district? If so, I'd be shocked if public TIF dollars weren't going to this stadium proposal...

[wong21fr]

Originally Posted by laniroj

Maybe Kroenke has a trick up his sleeve and is planning to swap elitches with the rapids stadium and then "rent" space at this new NWSL stadium...

I'm sure Commerce City would absolutely embrace having their future "city center" surrounded by an amusement park and would bend over backwards to rezone Kroenke's parcels for that.... though I'm pretty sure that Commerce City owns the stadium land itself.

[Fritzdude]

Originally Posted by mishko27

It's about the additional revenue stream that comes with owning your stadium - not only are you not renting a facility, but you receive all the profits from concessions, merch sales, etc., rather than leaving a percentage to the owner of the stadium. In KC, despite smaller attendance due to the capacity of the purpose built women's team stadium, the team made the most money ever during their first season in said stadium.

Also, our metro is somewhere around 3.5 million people. We can fill two soccer stadiums even if the games were at the same time - that's mere 32,000 people. And I believe that the fan bases are quite different for the two, although there will definitely be a crossover.

In any case, the stadium looks fantastic, is in a great location (unlike —'s), has access to one of the busiest transit stations in the city, it's close to both popular, and up and coming neighborhoods. This is a massive win for the city.

Agreed, the model of owning a sports team is all about owning the assets that under lie it to reap 100% of the revenue streams instead of paying off your landlord. I think the Colorado Rapids only keep around 25% percent of the ticket sales that they sell, for instance. I’d much rather have 100% of a smaller number. Plus, the owner gets to develop the surrounding parcels, which will directly benefit from this activity. It’s a whole lot better than trying to fight with Kroenke to schedule your season on overlapping schedules and only getting a percentage. Not to mention, I bet the majority of revenue sources will be non-soccer events. Concerts, movie nights, farmers markets, other sporting events, etc. FYI.. there is a TIF already in place from the Broadway development passed in 2017, which pays for roads, lights, infrastructure, etc..

[AHS1983]

Originally Posted by Fritzdude

Agreed, the model of owning a sports team is all about owning the assets that under lie it to reap 100% of the revenue streams instead of paying off your landlord. I think the Colorado Rapids only keep around 25% percent of the ticket sales that they sell, for instance. I’d much rather have 100% of a smaller number. Plus, the owner gets to develop the surrounding parcels, which will directly benefit from this activity. It’s a whole lot better than trying to fight with Kroenke to schedule your season on overlapping schedules and only getting a percentage. Not to mention, I bet the majority of revenue sources will be non-soccer events. Concerts, movie nights, farmers markets, other sporting events, etc. FYI.. there is a TIF already in place from the Broadway development passed in 2017, which pays for roads, lights, infrastructure, etc..

No doubt the control over the Broncos stadium revenue was the biggest part of their value at sale.

[laniroj]

Originally Posted by wong21fr

I'm sure Commerce City would absolutely embrace having their future "city center" surrounded by an amusement park and would bend over backwards to rezone Kroenke's parcels for that.... though I'm pretty sure that Commerce City owns the stadium land itself.

Remember this is a dude who relocated his NFL team to a massive LA entertainment megaplex and then strong armed the NFL into paying 1/4 of his $800 million settlement with St Louis, probably based on some BS indemnification clause that's in every contract. Do you think he cares what Commerce City thinks? He owns about half the land around the Rapids stadium with the City owning the stadium and the other half. Wouldn't be surprised if Stan the Man was trying to make a deal with Trump to take over that SE corner of the refuge land for elitches - that's the kind of gangster economic move billionaires can make which small towns cannot demand. The normal rules do not apply.

That area south of Rapids stadium is about 3x the size of elitches current footprint. It makes so much sense elitches could move there.

Commerce City would have been wise to put their city center up by Reunion along E470 - not tucked into the edge of Montbello and a Denver neighborhood (Central Park North - is that what it's called?) that will forever draw any commercial uses away from their "city center". It's not too late for the City to change their thinking.

[COtoOC]

Originally Posted by mishko27

It's about the additional revenue stream that comes with owning your stadium - not only are you not renting a facility, but you receive all the profits from concessions, merch sales, etc., rather than leaving a percentage to the owner of the stadium. In KC, despite smaller attendance due to the capacity of the purpose built women's team stadium, the team made the most money ever during their first season in said stadium.

Also, our metro is somewhere around 3.5 million people. We can fill two soccer stadiums even if the games were at the same time - that's mere 32,000 people. And I believe that the fan bases are quite different for the two, although there will definitely be a crossover.

In any case, the stadium looks fantastic, is in a great location (unlike —'s), has access to one of the busiest transit stations in the city, it's close to both popular, and up and coming neighborhoods. This is a massive win for the city.

Thanks for the explanation! I agree it's a nice looking stadium and great location.

[mhays]

Dunno...stadium use and revenue projections are often too optimistic. When a city has multiple similar facilities they tend compete and one often loses. With a grass field there's also the issue of keeping the grass healthy, i.e. limiting events.

Likewise, stadium-oriented mixed-use and entertainment developments are a popular idea these days but they're hard to make work. Some don't get built, or don't do well if they are built. The most fundamental challenge is that they're feast or famine...13 busy days per year (or let's say 30) isn't much.

[mishko27]

Originally Posted by mhays

Dunno...stadium use and revenue projections are often too optimistic. When a city has multiple similar facilities they tend compete and one often loses. With a grass field there's also the issue of keeping the grass healthy, i.e. limiting events.

Likewise, stadium-oriented mixed-use and entertainment developments are a popular idea these days but they're hard to make work. Some don't get built, or don't do well if they are built. The most fundamental challenge is that they're feast or famine...13 busy days per year (or let's say 30) isn't much.

That's why the location will help. Not only is it on a busy light rail station that is served by 3 out of the 4 light rails lines in the city, it's also sort of an offshoot of Broadway and you have rest of the Gates redevelopment right next to it. There will be a sizeable base of people living in close vicinity that will be able to keep the businesses in the entertainment district going outside of game days.