Quebec, the French Language, and Quebecois Identity

[lio45]

Originally Posted by Acajack

Just don't call me "French".

(Not that there is anything wrong with that...)

In my case they could. I could even get citizenship if I wanted! (Though, I’m not sure it’s realistic, it would involve dealing with the people at the French consulate in Mtl. )

[EnvisionSaintJohn]

Originally Posted by Acajack

Actually most people in Quebec probably aren't aware of the slur. It's most common in my experience outside Quebec, for example in the Ottawa Valley and Northern Ontario. You also might have heard "pepper" as a slur for French Canadians as well, which is a derivative of "pepsi". Popular anti-francophone meme: "French (sic!) breakfast: Pepsi and Jos Louis".

As for the Pepsi brand itself, why would it cease to exist or go into hiding?

They didn't stop selling watermelons and Kool-Aid in the US just because they are used as racist tropes for African-Americans.

I only knew it because my dad grew up in Montreal… way back in the 60’s. I don’t think it’s used anymore in Montreal? From his stories as a kid in NDG, the Québécois, even adults, had much worse to say to him as an English speaking child. A lot of “maudite Anglais” and even getting rocks thrown at them on the way to school

At least Montreal has a great bilingual public education system… unlike NB, Canada’s only bilingual province.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by EnvisionSaintJohn

I only knew it because my dad grew up in Montreal… way back in the 60’s. I don’t think it’s used anymore in Montreal? From his stories as a kid in NDG, the Québécois, even adults, had much worse to say to him as an English speaking child. A lot of “maudite Anglais” and even getting rocks thrown at them on the way to school

At least Montreal has a great bilingual public education system… unlike NB, Canada’s only bilingual province.

My kids, who are young adults who grew up in Quebec on the border with Ontario (and one of them now lives in Montreal) seem blissfully unaware of all these historical slurs. This includes most of the slurs for francophones (perhaps with the exception of "frog" which is international) and also the ones for anglophones like "tête carrée" and "blauque" (from "bloke").

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by Acajack

In Gatineau « Franco » is widely used as shorthand for Franco-Ontarien. Gatinois are just considered Québécois so no need to specify anything about being francophone. Which is course is also another shortcut as not all Gatinois are francophones.

« Franco » is also used as shorthand by Franco-Ontariens themselves to refer to their group.

This is mostly just regional/local colloquialism.

Originally Posted by Acajack

I don’t hear anglophones use « Franco » that much as it doesn’t sound good in English. To me it evokes Francisco Franco.

Which is what I said. People (especially outside the NCR) use "French" to mean Francophone. Franco is a fairly common term inside the military. And like I said, the only civvies I've really heard use it, are here in the NCR. But I don't think people mean to be derogatory when they say you are "French". I think it's fairly clear, they mean you are Francophone.

On the other hand, when NB uses "Anglo-Saxon", I'm fairly sure there is a hidden slur implied. It's kinda like if you call a Pakistani person "Paki", I'm fairly sure you're not just strictly referring to their ethnicity. I would think with all the high snob language discussions in this thread, most would be intelligent enough to understand implied and inferred meanings.

[harls]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

But I don't think people mean to be derogatory when they say you are "French". I think it's fairly clear, they mean you are Francophone.

Exactly.

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

On the other hand, when NB uses "Anglo-Saxon", I'm fairly sure there is a hidden slur implied. It's kinda like if you call a Pakistani person "Paki", I'm fairly sure you're not just strictly referring to their ethnicity. I would think with all the high snob language discussions in this thread, most would be intelligent enough to understand implied and inferred meanings.

And exactly, again.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

On the other hand, when NB uses "Anglo-Saxon", I'm fairly sure there is a hidden slur implied. It's kinda like if you call a Pakistani person "Paki", I'm fairly sure you're not just strictly referring to their ethnicity. I would think with all the high snob language discussions in this thread, most would be intelligent enough to understand implied and inferred meanings.

Except that there is comparatively little evidence that suggests that "Anglo-Saxon" is widely viewed as a slur in the wider world out there (even in France or in Russia), in comparison to "Paki" for which we can find millions of examples.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

This is mostly just regional/local colloquialism.

.

Exactly. I also was going to add that "Franco" isn't used that much in Quebec as soon as you get some distance away from the Ontario border.

It's used as a buzzword or buzz-prefix for festivals or other kinds of events or organizations for sure, but if you said to the average person in Montreal "c'est un Franco", they wouldn't necessarily pick up that you're referring to a Franco-Ontarien.

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by Acajack

Except that there is comparatively little evidence that suggests that "Anglo-Saxon" is widely viewed as a slur in the wider world out there (even in France or in Russia), in comparison to "Paki" for which we can find millions of examples.

I wasn't talking generalities. I was referring to the usage of that term by a specific individual.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

I wasn't talking generalities. I was referring to the usage of that term by a specific individual.

Sure, but anyone can use any name or word in a derogatory way if they put a certain tone or spin on it.

Also "Pakis" aren't even a people or an ethnic group. Isn't it an acronym composed from the first letter of the names of various groups that in habited the territory now known as Pakistan?

And of course, it all depends on a bunch of intangibles.

Why is "Chinaman" offensive whereas "Frenchman", "Irishman" or "Englishman" is not?

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by Acajack

Why is "Chinaman" offensive whereas "Frenchman", "Irishman" or "Englishman" is not?

You're the one who took offence to being called "French". You tell me.

[Curmudgeon]

Anglo-Saxon is largely an archaic term referring to pre-1066 England, and especially the south of the country. Ir is certainly not offensive.

The present United Kingdom consists of four countries: England, Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland. The collective term is British, though many identify with their respective constituent country, ie. English, Scottish or Welsh, and then with Northern Ireland either Northern Irish or just Irish. These are the appropriate terms that should be used, much like French or Russian people would prefer not to be called frogs or half-mongols.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

You're the one who took offence to being called "French". You tell me.

I didn't take offence. I mocked someone because it's inaccurate. As I've mentioned many times before, it's not an insult to be called "French".

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by Curmudgeon

Anglo-Saxon is largely an archaic term referring to pre-1066 England, and especially the south of the country. Ir is certainly not offensive.

The present United Kingdom consists of four countries: England, Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland. The collective term is British, though many identify with their respective constituent country, ie. English, Scottish or Welsh, and then with Northern Ireland either Northern Irish or just Irish. These are the appropriate terms that should be used, much like French or Russian people would prefer not to be called frogs or half-mongols.

There is no historical group that some of the people of present-day France would be descended from that had the name "Frogs". So it's not really equivalent.

I don't know why people keep bringing up actual ethno-racial slurs as if they were the same as an (admittedly outdated) term for a people that actually existed, and which isn't an insult.

[Nashe]

I'm not convinced it (Anglo-Saxon) is really MEANT as a slur, but man, is it ever a weird, meaningless term to use, especially for a "hip" society like France. Maybe it isn't as "hip" as I thought it is? Hmmm... maybe I should stop saying "hip" cuz that is also anachronistic. Groove on.

[New Brisavoine]

Originally Posted by EnvisionSaintJohn

I didn’t realize the French were the Americans of Europe…

Lol. You just don't get it, do you? It's NOT JUST THE FRENCH, it's most Europeans who see Ireland as an Anglo-Saxon country.

Here for example, from the Fundación Democracia y Gobierno Local (Democracy and Local Government Foundation) in Spain:

4. Los ingresos de los gobiernos locales supramunicipales

Según la naturaleza, la tipología y el peso de los impuestos, se pueden distinguir tres modelos de financiación local supramunicipal en la UE:
–Modelo con una sola figura impositiva. Es el caso de los países anglosajones (Irlanda y el Reino Unido), de los países nórdicos (Dinamarca y Suecia) y de Holanda. Los anglosajones se basan en la imposición sobre la propiedad inmueble; los nórdicos, en la imposición sobre la renta personal, y Holanda, en un recargo sobre el impuesto de vehículos.

https://repositorio.gobiernolocal.es/xml...ves08_07_cap4.pdf?sequence=1&isAllowed=y

Translation:

4. Revenues of supra-municipal local governments

Depending on the nature, type and weight of taxes, three models of supra-municipal local financing can be distinguished in the EU:
– Model with a single tax. This is the case in the Anglo-Saxon countries (Ireland and the United Kingdom), the Nordic countries (Denmark and Sweden) and the Netherlands. In the Anglo-Saxon countries it is based on property taxation, in the Nordic countries on personal income tax, and in the Netherlands on a surcharge on the vehicle tax.

Here a document from the German ministry of finances:

II. Steuerbelastung des Kapitaleinkommens im In- und Ausland

Ähnlich verhält es sich, wenn der ausländische Staat anstelle der Freistellungsmethode die Anrechnungsmethode anwendet, wie es angelsächsischer Tradition entspricht.

https://www.bundesfinanzministerium.de/C...te/3469_0.pdf?__blob=publicationFile&v=1

Translation:

II. Tax burden on capital income at home and abroad

The situation is similar if the foreign state applies the credit method instead of the exemption method, as is the Anglo-Saxon tradition.

Or this article from Süddeutsche Zeitung (in 2013, back when the UK was still in the EU, hence the plural):

Sie bieten Facebook, Apple und anderen großen Firmen lächerliche Steuersätze: Staaten wie Irland, Luxemburg und die Niederlande haben sich auf solche Lockaktionen spezialisiert. Doch bei diesem ruinösen Steuerwettbewerb verlieren alle Länder. Europas Regierungen sollten nicht auf ein Eingreifen der G 20 warten - sondern selbst Druck auf die meist kleineren Mitgliedsstaaten ausüben.

Ja richtig, Steuerpolitik kann in der Europäischen Union nur einstimmig beschlossen werden. Deshalb dauern Veränderungen in diesem Bereich viel länger als in der Energie- oder Euro-Politik. Vor allem angelsächsische Staaten blockieren mit Hingabe alles. Das heißt aber nicht, dass Veränderungen nicht möglich sind.

https://www.sueddeutsche.de/wirtschaft/steuerdumping-warum-die-eu-eine-union-werden-muss-1.1603748

They offer Facebook, Apple and other large companies ridiculous tax rates: countries like Ireland, Luxembourg and the Netherlands have specialized in such lures. But all countries lose in this ruinous tax competition. Europe's governments should not wait for the G20 to intervene - but should put pressure on the mostly smaller member states themselves.

Yes, that's right, tax policy can only be decided unanimously in the European Union. That's why changes in this area take much longer than in energy or euro policy. Anglo-Saxon countries in particular are devoted to blocking everything. But that doesn't mean that changes aren't possible.

[MolsonExport]

At least four people on this thread have the impression that when NB uses the term "Anglo Saxon", he is knowingly using it in a derisive manner.

Why is there such pushback?

[New Brisavoine]

Originally Posted by EnvisionSaintJohn

Anglophone or English speakers are both east enough to say.

The Kenyans are Anglophones but they are not Anglo-Saxon. Ditto for the Nigerians. Both terms do not match.

These days in the EU everybody is Anglophone, all the commissioners speak almost only in English (to a point that has become ridiculous, completely bypassing the translators present everywhere). MEPs also often choose to communicate in English (despite the presence of translators). But only Ireland is Anglo-Saxon (now that the UK is gone).

[harls]

Originally Posted by Acajack

I didn't take offence. I mocked someone because it's inaccurate. As I've mentioned many times before, it's not an insult to be called "French".

Nice backpedal.

[EnvisionSaintJohn]

Câlisse.

Ireland is not an Anglo Saxon country, neither is Canada, or the US, or even the UK for that matter.

The Anglo Saxons existed during the Middle Ages.


Like honestly, lol

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by New Brisavoine

Lol. You just don't get it, do you? It's NOT JUST THE FRENCH, it's most Europeans who see Ireland as an Anglo-Saxon country.

Here for example, from the Fundación Democracia y Gobierno Local (Democracy and Local Government Foundation) in Spain:


Translation:


Here a document from the German ministry of finances:


Translation:


Or this article from Süddeutsche Zeitung (in 2013, back when the UK was still in the EU, hence the plural):

Would this be a good time to mention that the island of Ireland is one of the "British" Isles?