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  #2501  
Old Posted Feb 21, 2025, 2:00 AM
thenoflyzone thenoflyzone is offline
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AC starting YUL-SCL and resuming YYZ-GIG in NW25.

https://www.aeroroutes.com/eng/250220-acnw25sa

Quote:
Air Canada this week filed network expansion to South America for Northern winter 2025/26 season, as the carrier schedules nonstop Montreal – Santiago de Chile, while resumes Toronto – Rio de Janeiro Galeao route.

Montreal – Santiago de Chile eff 16DEC25 3 weekly 787-8
AC052 YUL1825 – 0715+1SCL 788 246
AC053 SCL0900 – 1740YUL 788 357

Toronto – Rio de Janeiro eff 04DEC25 3 weekly 787-8 (Last served until October 2016)
AC084 YYZ2330 – 1145+1GIG 788 246
AC085 GIG2230 – 0700+1YYZ 788 357
This is the 5th destination in South America for YUL, after CTG, BOG, LIM and GRU.
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  #2502  
Old Posted Feb 22, 2025, 8:41 AM
thenoflyzone thenoflyzone is offline
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Last week, TK was denied extra-bilateral authority (the request was for the whole IATA 2025 summer season, no less) to Canada. They wanted to add 1x weekly to YYZ, and 2x weekly each to YVR and YUL. That's a 42% overall increase to the bilateral limit.

AC and TS objected. GTAA, ADM and YVR were for it, obviously.

https://otc-cta.gc.ca/eng/ruling/a-2025-25

The previous request to add 1x weekly service to YYZ was approved last summer (from May to Sept), and then subsequently extended for one month. This time though, I think TK was pushing it's luck, requesting it - and more - for the whole summer season coming up. If they want more landing rights, they should push for the bilateral agreement to be updated, and not use the extra-bilateral authority as a tool to do it.

Last edited by thenoflyzone; Feb 22, 2025 at 8:52 AM.
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  #2503  
Old Posted Feb 22, 2025, 1:42 PM
Dominion301 Dominion301 is offline
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Originally Posted by thenoflyzone View Post
Last week, TK was denied extra-bilateral authority (the request was for the whole IATA 2025 summer season, no less) to Canada. They wanted to add 1x weekly to YYZ, and 2x weekly each to YVR and YUL. That's a 42% overall increase to the bilateral limit.

AC and TS objected. GTAA, ADM and YVR were for it, obviously.

https://otc-cta.gc.ca/eng/ruling/a-2025-25

The previous request to add 1x weekly service to YYZ was approved last summer (from May to Sept), and then subsequently extended for one month. This time though, I think TK was pushing it's luck, requesting it - and more - for the whole summer season coming up. If they want more landing rights, they should push for the bilateral agreement to be updated, and not use the extra-bilateral authority as a tool to do it.
Interesting and yeah seeking one extra weekly would probably have been fine but five extra weekly is just circumventing the bilateral - even if the bilateral itself 🞵🞵🞵🞵🞵. They need to lobby the respective governments for more access.
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  #2504  
Old Posted Feb 23, 2025, 3:08 AM
zahav zahav is offline
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Ugh I know there needs to be a formal system, but this bilateral restriction is so insane, such tight restrictions harken back to regulated era, most countries have moved way past that. I hate to be controversial or un-patriotic, but some things Canada does lately seem almost arrogant or not "traditional" Canadian openness. Even the US (at least not yet) doesn't stifle things as much as us. The fact that airlines have such a strong interest serving multiple cities in our country is a boost of confidence, and yet we have archaic muzzles to artificially lower traffic and connections. The powers-that-be seem hellbent on alienating us from every major market in one way or another. The fact that our government/PM mishandled situations with some of our most important partners (China, India, Turkey, Mexico, USA). I am not saying we need to roll over or get bullied, and the issues at play with each of these countries is different. But it seems we are not handling it how we should with anyone, and that is concerning. If we only fumbled with one big country, then it might be a misunderstanding. But when that many different countries each take offence to what you did, it is no longer a "you" problem... Having countries WANT to forge more connections, having their population WANT to visit, and giving love to multiple airports is great, some countries would kill for that kind of demand. We guard the gate so tight it's absurd.

Is YUL-SCL a brand new route, or did AC service it anytime before? This kind of add deserves a new release for sure, how did they not do one?? If it's a first time route pair for AC, they definitely should have. If it's a resumption of any kind, they wouldn't necessarily need to announce it. But a new add international addition, it's news release worthy 100%. Good for YUL, that's a great SA destination variety actually. And continuing the trend of adding international services to YUL that were previously YYZ territory. I wonder how close AC international traffic is at YYZ v. YUL. Not transborder, just international. I bet that gap is really narrowing.

Here's a weird change: VIRGIN ATLANTIC MODIFIES WESTJET CODESHARE PARTNERSHIP IN NS25

The change is that VS will add its code on WS flights from YYZ to a bunch of Canadian destinations. Yet the article says "Despite the airline’s press release issued yesterday (18FEB25) claimingthe expansion of codeshare partnership with WestJet, the airline’s new codeshare routes to/from Toronto will replace existing ones via Calgary (except Calgary – Toronto route). Previously reported on AeroRoutes on 10FEB25, Virgin is discontinuing placing VS-coded flights on WestJet’s Calgary – London Heathrow route from 30MAR25. In addition, 11 routes to/from Calgary will no longer carry VS-coded flight numbers from the same date. I guess they only want to promote YYZ and build it up, rather than encourage people to fly to YYC on WS. That's no shade, just seems a very direct move that they aren't deep in with WS, and not really interested in being a partner to somewhere like YYC. Virgin has always seemed odd to me, but nowadays more than ever. Their destination list is a weird combination of leisure sun routes and random international cities, and they have had a rocky destination history, ditching some very high profile international routes like NRT and HKG. As much as I admittedly lament losing them to YVR for these couple years, my opinion on them isn't personal, just based on what I see. Their big score though was the DL partnership, that really shifted their focus and opened up a massive connecting market. They used to focus on places like ORL and LAS (plus of course NYC and LAX, the majors). But now they are right in deep with DL, really an odd pairing.
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  #2505  
Old Posted Feb 23, 2025, 7:05 PM
Myst Myst is offline
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Perhaps looking at it from another perspective.

The strength that Canada has is our rule of law. It is slower, but far better, to run by the rules and change them for everyone with due consideration of what the impacts of a policy are.

The Huawei executive was the result of honoring our extradition treaty. It was the US that made the mess, and China didn’t like it, but allowing the courts to function and following the rule of law is the right outcome. Yes we were stuck in the middle. No that wasn’t fair. Rule of law is the right outcome.

The India issues are similar. If we want fairness we can’t just use power instead of due process. That’s hard when dealing with people that want to use leverage.

Gary Kasparov said that “in chess the rules are fixed, and the results are surprising.” Known rules - not changing rules to effect a result - is what should set us apart.

Open skies are more modern than bilaterals, but if the agreement is what is in place it is what should be administered. A small temporary adjustment that stays within the intent of the bilateral is one thing. Approving significant extra-bilateral flights is not a substitute for the reasons for the bilateral or a possible need to negotiate a new agreement.
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  #2506  
Old Posted Feb 23, 2025, 9:00 PM
thenoflyzone thenoflyzone is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zahav View Post
Ugh I know there needs to be a formal system, but this bilateral restriction is so insane, such tight restrictions harken back to regulated era, most countries have moved way past that. I hate to be controversial or un-patriotic, but some things Canada does lately seem almost arrogant or not "traditional" Canadian openness. Even the US (at least not yet) doesn't stifle things as much as us. The fact that airlines have such a strong interest serving multiple cities in our country is a boost of confidence, and yet we have archaic muzzles to artificially lower traffic and connections. The powers-that-be seem hellbent on alienating us from every major market in one way or another. The fact that our government/PM mishandled situations with some of our most important partners (China, India, Turkey, Mexico, USA). I am not saying we need to roll over or get bullied, and the issues at play with each of these countries is different. But it seems we are not handling it how we should with anyone, and that is concerning. If we only fumbled with one big country, then it might be a misunderstanding. But when that many different countries each take offence to what you did, it is no longer a "you" problem... Having countries WANT to forge more connections, having their population WANT to visit, and giving love to multiple airports is great, some countries would kill for that kind of demand. We guard the gate so tight it's absurd.
Nothing insane about it. Let's not forget that it's only a handful of countries that want more access to Canada.

U.A.E, Ethiopia, Turkey and Qatar are the main ones. That's only 4 countries.

The rest, to my knowledge, are just fine with the bilateral agreements. Qatar just recently got access to YYZ. So they're pretty happy about that.

Canada has open skies (or its de-facto equivalent) with the US, the EU, UK, India, Brazil, S. Korea, Australia, NZ, and countless other nations in Latin America and the Caribbean. Not to mention all the expanded agreements of late (including with the 4 countries in question!). There is nothing archaic about it. Bilateral air agreements are more than just about landing rights.

Quote:
Originally Posted by zahav View Post
Is YUL-SCL a brand new route, or did AC service it anytime before?
YUL-SCL is a brand new route.

Quote:
Originally Posted by zahav View Post
Here's a weird change: VIRGIN ATLANTIC MODIFIES WESTJET CODESHARE PARTNERSHIP IN NS25

The change is that VS will add its code on WS flights from YYZ to a bunch of Canadian destinations.
Makes total sense. They want to push ppl to fly their own metal on the upcoming LHR-YYZ, hence the end of codesharing on LHR-YYC. Why would they help WS fill their flights out of LHR, and do themselves a disservice at the same time? Considering their poor performance to Canada in the past, they want to make sure their new YYZ route works.
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  #2507  
Old Posted Feb 23, 2025, 9:12 PM
thenoflyzone thenoflyzone is offline
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Rumor has it AC has canceled its plans to reactivate the 767s.

Also, TLV resumption from YYZ and YUL has been delayed and reduced.

https://www.aircanada.com/ca/en/aco/home...es/2025/travel-to-and-from-israel.html#/
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  #2508  
Old Posted Feb 23, 2025, 9:21 PM
nname nname is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thenoflyzone View Post
Nothing insane about it. Let's not forget that it's only a handful of countries that want more access to Canada.

U.A.E, Ethiopia, Turkey and Qatar are the main ones. That's only 4 countries.

The rest, to my knowledge, are just fine with the bilateral agreements. Qatar just recently got access to YYZ. So they're pretty happy about that.
There is much more than that. On the Pacific side: Taiwan, Hong Kong, and of course, China.
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  #2509  
Old Posted Feb 23, 2025, 9:23 PM
thenoflyzone thenoflyzone is offline
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To my knowledge, Cathay or EVA Air aren’t begging for more Canada flights.

As for China, very few countries, if any, have open skies with them.
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  #2510  
Old Posted Feb 23, 2025, 9:32 PM
nname nname is offline
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Originally Posted by thenoflyzone View Post
To my knowledge, Cathay or EVA Air aren’t begging for more Canada flights.

As for China, very few countries, if any, have open skies with them.
HX wanted daily YVR and YYZ back in 2018, but secondary airline for each country only granted 10x weekly
https://otc-cta.gc.ca/eng/ruling/a-2018-111
https://otc-cta.gc.ca/eng/ruling/let-a-51-2018
https://otc-cta.gc.ca/eng/ruling/a-2018-195

BR wants to double their service to both YVR and YYZ, CI wants access to YYZ, JX wants daily to YVR. Not sure if BR and CI made their request official, but JX did. Rumor is that bilateral talk with Taiwan is ongoing due to the JX request.
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  #2511  
Old Posted Feb 23, 2025, 11:12 PM
ninjakafi_81 ninjakafi_81 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nname View Post
There is much more than that. On the Pacific side: Taiwan, Hong Kong, and of course, China.
Not listed but what is the current agreement with Japan ? I'm kind of curious because it seems like AC is adding more flights to Japan, especially with the recent launch of YYZ-KIX and hopes to have flights to NGO and CTS.

Also what is the likelihood of AC having more flights out of HND.
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  #2512  
Old Posted Feb 23, 2025, 11:19 PM
Zmonkey Zmonkey is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nname View Post
HX wanted daily YVR and YYZ back in 2018, but secondary airline for each country only granted 10x weekly
https://otc-cta.gc.ca/eng/ruling/a-2018-111
https://otc-cta.gc.ca/eng/ruling/let-a-51-2018
https://otc-cta.gc.ca/eng/ruling/a-2018-195

BR wants to double their service to both YVR and YYZ, CI wants access to YYZ, JX wants daily to YVR. Not sure if BR and CI made their request official, but JX did. Rumor is that bilateral talk with Taiwan is ongoing due to the JX request.
If a countries primary goal is to Connect Canadians to another Country, AC and AT protest it and it gets stalled.
Taiwain, Hong Kong, Turkey, UAE and Qatar all fall into this - that is what Canada has always pushed back against to protect its domestic carriers at the expense we get higher prices and most airports get worse service.

This was true prior to Covid and not sure where things stand now, but there were many days there were more Canadians using the Seattle flights to the Indian subcontinant than from Vancouver. Things have likley changed heavily now but the point remains.

But people really need to get why these rules exist, protect Air Canada's margins and prices out of Canada. WestJet and Porter have always wanted more of those flights as they will just connect them domestically and to the USA.
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  #2513  
Old Posted Feb 24, 2025, 12:05 AM
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casper casper is offline
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Originally Posted by Zmonkey View Post
If a countries primary goal is to Connect Canadians to another Country, AC and AT protest it and it gets stalled.
Taiwain, Hong Kong, Turkey, UAE and Qatar all fall into this - that is what Canada has always pushed back against to protect its domestic carriers at the expense we get higher prices and most airports get worse service.

This was true prior to Covid and not sure where things stand now, but there were many days there were more Canadians using the Seattle flights to the Indian subcontinant than from Vancouver. Things have likley changed heavily now but the point remains.

But people really need to get why these rules exist, protect Air Canada's margins and prices out of Canada. WestJet and Porter have always wanted more of those flights as they will just connect them domestically and to the USA.
These rules exist because of treaties. The treats are usually fair. Turkey and Canada agree to a certain number of flights or speats per week with the same rights given to Canadian airlines vrs airlines from Turkey.

There are some countries where we have open skies. The European Union and the US are two good examples. Canada put no limits on EU airlines opening new flights to Canada while the EU puts no limits on Canadian airlines doing the same to the EU.

It would be foolish for Canada to open up access for airlines from Turkey without Turkey doing the same for Canada.
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  #2514  
Old Posted Feb 24, 2025, 12:33 AM
YOWetal YOWetal is offline
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Originally Posted by casper View Post
These rules exist because of treaties. The treats are usually fair. Turkey and Canada agree to a certain number of flights or speats per week with the same rights given to Canadian airlines vrs airlines from Turkey.

There are some countries where we have open skies. The European Union and the US are two good examples. Canada put no limits on EU airlines opening new flights to Canada while the EU puts no limits on Canadian airlines doing the same to the EU.

It would be foolish for Canada to open up access for airlines from Turkey without Turkey doing the same for Canada.
It would be foolish of Canada to open up access even if Turkey did the same. Canada is a huge net exporter of air services with low costs and a huge network so they are able to steal a lot of long haul passengers. Meanwhile Canada isn't going to get any transit passengers.
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  #2515  
Old Posted Feb 24, 2025, 5:14 AM
Zmonkey Zmonkey is offline
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Originally Posted by casper View Post
These rules exist because of treaties. The treats are usually fair. Turkey and Canada agree to a certain number of flights or speats per week with the same rights given to Canadian airlines vrs airlines from Turkey.

There are some countries where we have open skies. The European Union and the US are two good examples. Canada put no limits on EU airlines opening new flights to Canada while the EU puts no limits on Canadian airlines doing the same to the EU.

It would be foolish for Canada to open up access for airlines from Turkey without Turkey doing the same for Canada.
Turkey, UAE and Hong Kong would have zero issues with open skies with Canada. They would all give up more access because they are connecting cities. Canada isn't trying to grow here since there isn't a push from Air Canada.

Much of our treaties and restrictions come from lobbying from our airline industry, which is dominated by AC. there is a reason once AC and EK got close magically UAE had more landing rights in Canada after 10 years of nothing. Turkey would love open skies with Canada, the next day 5 cities would have flights to Istanbul on TK. AC can fly there today and doesn't (Heck they pulled out) So government is in no hurry.
Our airline rules are dominated by corporate lobbying.
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  #2516  
Old Posted Feb 25, 2025, 12:24 AM
Dominion301 Dominion301 is offline
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Canadian North have agreed to sell themselves to Exchange Income Corporation (EIC) for $195 million + $10 million worth of EIC shares. The YUL-YVP route is not part of the sale, which means I assume that route will transfer to ex-sister company Air Inuit.

https://ca.finance.yahoo.com/news/exchange-income-corporation-announces-entering-220100433.html
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  #2517  
Old Posted Feb 25, 2025, 3:02 AM
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Alexcaban Alexcaban is offline
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Am I crazy or did I just notice that Westjet is starting YUL-CUN/PUJ/POP/MBJ/VRA this summer.
Is this a Sunwing takeover?
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  #2518  
Old Posted Feb 25, 2025, 6:48 AM
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Originally Posted by Alexcaban View Post
Am I crazy or did I just notice that Westjet is starting YUL-CUN/PUJ/POP/MBJ/VRA this summer.
Is this a Sunwing takeover?
Yeah, Sunwing airlines is being intagrated into WS mainline in May. I think they also doing RIH from YUL too.
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  #2519  
Old Posted Feb 25, 2025, 12:15 PM
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Originally Posted by Zmonkey View Post
Turkey, UAE and Hong Kong would have zero issues with open skies with Canada. They would all give up more access because they are connecting cities. Canada isn't trying to grow here since there isn't a push from Air Canada.

Much of our treaties and restrictions come from lobbying from our airline industry, which is dominated by AC. there is a reason once AC and EK got close magically UAE had more landing rights in Canada after 10 years of nothing. Turkey would love open skies with Canada, the next day 5 cities would have flights to Istanbul on TK. AC can fly there today and doesn't (Heck they pulled out) So government is in no hurry.
Our airline rules are dominated by corporate lobbying.
So what is in it for Canada?

If TK flies an extra say 1,000 passangers a day between Canada and middle east/east asia. Air Canada perhaps has one or two fewer widebodies in its fleet (and adjusts staffing levels) and maybe Air France or Lufthansa drops one or two flights into Canada to compensate.

Is Canada better off reducing opportunities for business and ties with the EU so we can funnel more people through Turkey, China and UAE? Is our trade and defense alliance with Turkey, China and UAE more important to us than the EU?

There is a reason why we have open skies with some countries and not others.
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  #2520  
Old Posted Feb 25, 2025, 2:09 PM
Dominion301 Dominion301 is offline
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Originally Posted by Alexcaban View Post
Am I crazy or did I just notice that Westjet is starting YUL-CUN/PUJ/POP/MBJ/VRA this summer.
Is this a Sunwing takeover?
Yeah and YUL is even going to be a WS base believe it or not.
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