Confederation Line (Stage 1) | In Service 1.0

[DTcrawler]

Originally Posted by kmcamp

The TTC not so much. Torontonians are far more indifferent to subway outages, they happen fairly frequently

I've said it before, but if Ottawans experienced the type of chaos Torontonians see during a TTC shuttle bus event, we'd probably launch another public inquiry over it. Half the city's workforce would go on long-term leave, I guarantee it.

Here's a little visual representation of what I'm talking about.

I wish someone who knows how to find the relevant data would make a solid, apples-to-apples comparison of service delivery rates of various rapid transit systems across Canada. I have a feeling such a summary would let us put an end to these circular discussions once and for all, instead of constantly debating over misrepresentations fabricated by basement-dwelling redditors and click-hungry reporters.

[kmcamp]

Originally Posted by DTcrawler

I've said it before, but if Ottawans experienced the type of chaos Torontonians see during a TTC shuttle bus event, we'd probably launch another public inquiry over it. Half the city's workforce would go on long-term leave, I guarantee it.

Here's a little visual representation of what I'm talking about.

I wish someone who knows how to find the relevant data would make a solid, apples-to-apples comparison of service delivery rates of various rapid transit systems across Canada. I have a feeling such a summary would let us put an end to these circular discussions once and for all, instead of constantly debating over misrepresentations fabricated by basement-dwelling redditors and click-hungry reporters.

Perception is reality though, despite the facts.

OC Transpo's official numbers for Line 1 and Line 2 is 98%

Montreal Metro's official number is 98%. REM, even with it's recent issues is 98%

TTC Line 1 is 75%, and Line 2 91%:

Translink is 88%

NYC Subway is 82%

But in all those cities, people have had trains for decades, and are used to outages. Until now, most people in Ottawa's impressions of train reliability are based on visiting other cities, and generally on tourist trips you aren't going to catch the bad day on the subway.

[lrt's friend]

Originally Posted by kmcamp

Perception is reality though, despite the facts.

OC Transpo's official numbers for Line 1 and Line 2 is 98%

Montreal Metro's official number is 98%. REM, even with it's recent issues is 98%

TTC Line 1 is 75%, and Line 2 91%:

Translink is 88%

NYC Subway is 82%

But in all those cities, people have had trains for decades, and are used to outages. Until now, most people in Ottawa's impressions of train reliability are based on visiting other cities, and generally on tourist trips you aren't going to catch the bad day on the subway.

I did in LA a year ago. It was not fun using a bus shuttle after dark wandering around back streets not having a clue where we were.

[SidetrackedSue]

I saw this yesterday and thought it was worth sharing here.

https://www.reddit.com/r/ottawa/comments/1ispji3/grid_lock_in_centre_town/

In that gridlock, at least the LRT was running in its tunnel.

This is probably the only time I'll say anything nice about the LRT but fair is fair.

PS: I loved the quote from 1952 about the street cars. Times changed. My dad in the 1960s took a bus to work frequently (from the near west-end) because we were a one car family and mom would need the car to take the kids to assorted appointments. Plus parking was expensive downtown. Nowadays parking is expensive but the bus is so unreliable, people will figure out a way to add the cost of car & parking to their budget because they value the hours they gain over using transit.

[DTcrawler]

Originally Posted by kmcamp

Perception is reality though, despite the facts.

OC Transpo's official numbers for Line 1 and Line 2 is 98%

Montreal Metro's official number is 98%. REM, even with it's recent issues is 98%

TTC Line 1 is 75%, and Line 2 91%:

Translink is 88%

NYC Subway is 82%

But in all those cities, people have had trains for decades, and are used to outages. Until now, most people in Ottawa's impressions of train reliability are based on visiting other cities, and generally on tourist trips you aren't going to catch the bad day on the subway.

Thanks for providing those numbers. I figured O-Train Line 1 would be better than TTC Line 1 but not by such a wide margin. I'm also shocked to see the SkyTrain that low.

You are correct, perception is reality. However, I'd argue the loudest complainers are the ones who never travel at all. Instead they have a "grass is greener" mindset where they're under the impression Ottawa is the only city with such problems. They project these opinions online and the reddit hive-mind takes over, and before you know it, people believe in realities that differ from what they actually experience.

A family member of mine moved to NYC two years ago. Before they left, they raved about leaving the O-Train's struggles behind in favour of a "world-class" system like the MTA subway. When I went to visit them last summer, I was surprised to hear them suggest we take an uber to avoid the subway's service unpredictability (along with a whole host of other problems such as safety concerns).

I like to believe the silver lining of Ottawans' incessant complaining is that it will ideally breed a higher standard for us, regardless of how we perform compared to other cities. Unfortunately, I think we're past that point and instead, planners and officials have just grown apathetic, plugged their ears and said, "you'll complain regardless, so why bother trying? You get what you get".

[kmcamp]

Originally Posted by DTcrawler

Thanks for providing those numbers. I figured O-Train Line 1 would be better than TTC Line 1 but not by such a wide margin. I'm also shocked to see the SkyTrain that low.

You are correct, perception is reality. However, I'd argue the loudest complainers are the ones who never travel at all. Instead they have a "grass is greener" mindset where they're under the impression Ottawa is the only city with such problems. They project these opinions online and the reddit hive-mind takes over, and before you know it, people believe in realities that differ from what they actually experience.

A family member of mine moved to NYC two years ago. Before they left, they raved about leaving the O-Train's struggles behind in favour of a "world-class" system like the MTA subway. When I went to visit them last summer, I was surprised to hear them suggest we take an uber to avoid the subway's service unpredictability (along with a whole host of other problems such as safety concerns).

I like to believe the silver lining of Ottawans' incessant complaining is that it will ideally breed a higher standard for us, regardless of how we perform compared to other cities. Unfortunately, I think we're past that point and instead, planners and officials have just grown apathetic, plugged their ears and said, "you'll complain regardless, so why bother trying? You get what you get".

To add some context to the numbers, this is "on-time" performance, so it doesn't count scheduled outages. Also, on older lines without ATC like many MTA lines, a train falling off schedule but still running would count as missing the target.

I think what might color the perception is the blessing and curse of ATC. It keeps the trains running like clockwork. However, when a confed line train stops, all trains stop everywhere while they reconfigure the system. On an older system, it can take a while before all the trains would be stuck at red signals, and so if you're far enough away from the problem there's a chance you wouldn't be impacted much, you might just notice the train running slower.

[AuxTown]

I know there have been problems, but every time I take the LRT through the downtown I am amazed that this actually got built in Ottawa. It is a pretty solid backbone for our transit system and is super well-integrated to its surroundings from Lyon to U of O. The stations may need some upgrades/retrofits but the tunnel is solid and, compared to some of the surface options we we looking at 15 years ago, it is so much better IMO.

[Uhuniau]

Originally Posted by AuxTown

I know there have been problems, but every time I take the LRT through the downtown I am amazed that this actually got built in Ottawa. It is a pretty solid backbone for our transit system and is super well-integrated to its surroundings from Lyon to U of O. The stations may need some upgrades/retrofits but the tunnel is solid and, compared to some of the surface options we we looking at 15 years ago, it is so much better IMO.

Amen.

I tell the young'uns about the busjams of yore, and I don't understand why a modern Stompin' Tom hasn't yet turned them into the subject of a folk song.

[Dengler Avenue]

Originally Posted by AuxTown

I know there have been problems, but every time I take the LRT through the downtown I am amazed that this actually got built in Ottawa. It is a pretty solid backbone for our transit system and is super well-integrated to its surroundings from Lyon to U of O. The stations may need some upgrades/retrofits but the tunnel is solid and, compared to some of the surface options we we looking at 15 years ago, it is so much better IMO.

Now, we need to tell Amilcar and Co. to restore the 5-minute midday and weekend frequencies. Even 6-minute frequency is fine too (for better connection with Line 2 which runs every 12 minutes).

[AuxTown]

Originally Posted by Dengler Avenue

Now, we need to tell Amilcar and Co. to restore the 5-minute midday and weekend frequencies. Even 6-minute frequency is fine too (for better connection with Line 2 which runs every 12 minutes).

I have to imagine that they plan to do that once the East extension opens or, at the very least, when the West extension opens. But I won't assume anything with this city.

[kmcamp]

Originally Posted by AuxTown

I have to imagine that they plan to do that once the East extension opens or, at the very least, when the West extension opens. But I won't assume anything with this city.

Probably not.. Wasn't there a plan to turn line 3 into a shuttle train like Line 4 out of peak periods? That would allow them to keep 10 minute frequencies.

I'm not sure why, but the 10 minute wait for Line 1 feels longer than the 12 minute wait for Line 2. Maybe it's because the platform is colder

[YOWetal]

Originally Posted by AuxTown

I have to imagine that they plan to do that once the East extension opens or, at the very least, when the West extension opens. But I won't assume anything with this city.

Well they will be forced to with the west extension as the split will double those headways. 20 minutes is going to be pretty crazy.

[lrt's friend]

Originally Posted by Uhuniau

Amen.

I tell the young'uns about the busjams of yore, and I don't understand why a modern Stompin' Tom hasn't yet turned them into the subject of a folk song.

I don't think everybody will agree and our ridership figures support this. It isn't the train itself, but the overall transit network has failed a lot of people, who have abandoned the system. If everything was working well, we would be at 110% prepandemic ridership like Calgary, Edmonton, Brampton, Mississauga and Kitchener. Has anybody asked the 30% who have given up on transit? I thought not

[YOWetal]

Originally Posted by lrt's friend

I don't think everybody will agree and our ridership figures support this. It isn't the train itself, but the overall transit network has failed a lot of people, who have abandoned the system. If everything was working well, we would be at 110% prepandemic ridership like Calgary, Edmonton, Brampton, Mississauga and Kitchener. Has anybody asked the 30% who have given up on transit? I thought not

I think your long standing claim that the LRT has made service worse for more people than it's helped is probably true but that's likely a small part of the difference. We haven't seen a surge in commuters and our huge captive public servant commuters who inflated our starting number are now in the office half the time and as well above average income earners are generally able to commute by car or even uber to avoid transit.

[OCCheetos]

Originally Posted by YOWetal

Well they will be forced to with the west extension as the split will double those headways. 20 minutes is going to be pretty crazy.

They could just as easily run a shuttle between Moodie and Lincoln Fields every 10 minutes to match the frequency on the main line— which is the plan for late night service anyhow.

Anything is still possible though.

[Dengler Avenue]

If the LRT branches run every 20 minutes, ridership will be very low, just like the VIVA buses in YRT (except VIVA Blue).

[kmcamp]

Originally Posted by OCCheetos

They could just as easily run a shuttle between Moodie and Lincoln Fields every 10 minutes to match the frequency on the main line— which is the plan for late night service anyhow.

Anything is still possible though.

One thing I wondered if it's necessary to run every line 1 and 3 train out to Trim. I figure they could short turn Line 3 at Blair, and then you could do a 6 minute frequency in the shared section, then 12 minutes on the branches out to the burbs (like line 2/4). It would definitely make transfers in the system easier

[lrt's friend]

Originally Posted by Uhuniau

Amen.

I tell the young'uns about the busjams of yore, and I don't understand why a modern Stompin' Tom hasn't yet turned them into the subject of a folk song.

Originally Posted by Dengler Avenue

If the LRT branches run every 20 minutes, ridership will be very low, just like the VIVA buses in YRT (except VIVA Blue).

A 20 minute train with 30 minute buses will be repellent to ridership. Ottawa is simply not designing it's transit network to make transfers easy and reliable. We just plunk down lines on a map and say, look the lines connect, good enough. I have argued that OC bus and rail operations are too siloed. So, I go to South Keys or Greenboro and the next bus screens don't list the trains. This should be a basic.

[YOWetal]

Originally Posted by kmcamp

One thing I wondered if it's necessary to run every line 1 and 3 train out to Trim. I figure they could short turn Line 3 at Blair, and then you could do a 6 minute frequency in the shared section, then 12 minutes on the branches out to the burbs (like line 2/4). It would definitely make transfers in the system easier

Aren't we going to route busses to Trim from most points east?

So now our best case headways are 6 minutes? Weren't we looking at 3 minutes at one point. In which case sure stop at Trim half the time.

[Uhuniau]

Originally Posted by lrt's friend

So, I go to South Keys or Greenboro and the next bus screens don't list the trains. This should be a basic.

Or Parliament.

If the screens were still working. Which, of course, they are not. But at ten-minute frequencies, there are going to be times and destinations where it makes more sense for me to just hop on the 11 or 16 and head west, than it does to climb downstairs and wait 9 minutes and 45 seconds for the train that I would be about to miss.

But the train departure information is not available on the surface.