High Speed Rail in Canada

[samne]

Can fantasy locate whatever station and corridor alignment. It’s not happening. This is Trudeau’s final gift to consultants as he departs. Its make work project for $4billion.

[Nouvellecosse]

Originally Posted by elly63

I wonder if the speed would be scalable. The French, with a modified TGV and track got up to 574.8 kmh. I know we are looking at 300 kmh what would it take to get it to 400 kmh? Could we follow the French technology from 2007 that got them the highest speed? I have no idea, just wondering why we wouldn't follow their work from the 2007 tests for a higher speed.

Probably not that big of a step up, although the faster the intended speeds the straighter the route needs to be meaning you have to go over/under/through more obstacles like lakes and hills rather than the much cheaper option of going around. But 300km/h is often seen as the sweet spot in term of construction and operational cost since at high speed the air resistance is a greater opposing force than rolling resistance and air resistance increases exponentially as speed increases rather than linearly. Which is one of the main reasons that airliners fly at such high altitudes that require cabin pressurization. It's far more efficient to travel at high speeds in the less dense air.

So regular 300km/h HSR is already much less energy efficient than conventional speed rail all else being equal (electrified, similar distance, etc.). But HSR makes up for it by attracting passengers from other less efficient modes like air due to its more attractive travel times that conventional speed rail can't compete with. But as speed continues to increase and energy usage increases exponentially, there comes a point at which the extra passengers it attracts can't offset the energy loss. Plus, higher speed also puts greater wear on the tracks and trains which is an additional cost separate from the initial construction.

[SignalHillHiker]

Very happy for all of you in that TO-QC corridor. This can only increase the likelihood of even more better things, in more regions.

[craner]

Interesting tidbits on the physics & engineering Nouvellecosse.

I really hope this gets completed this time - even if it’s just Tor-Mtl initially and then grow from there.

[MolsonExport]

Originally Posted by Nouvellecosse

Probably not that big of a step up, although the faster the intended speeds the straighter the route needs to be meaning you have to go over/under/through more obstacles like lakes and hills rather than the much cheaper option of going around. But 300km/h is often seen as the sweet spot in term of construction and operational cost since at high speed the air resistance is a greater opposing force than rolling resistance and air resistance increases exponentially as speed increases rather than linearly. Which is one of the main reasons that airliners fly at such high altitudes that require cabin pressurization. It's far more efficient to travel at high speeds in the less dense air.

So regular 300km/h HSR is already much less energy efficient than conventional speed rail all else being equal (electrified, similar distance, etc.). But HSR makes up for it by attracting passengers from other less efficient modes like air due to its more attractive travel times that conventional speed rail can't compete with. But as speed continues to increase and energy usage increases exponentially, there comes a point at which the extra passengers it attracts can't offset the energy loss. Plus, higher speed also puts greater wear on the tracks and trains which is an additional cost separate from the initial construction.

Very educational, thanks!

[Truenorth00]

Great post nouvellecosse.

I'll just add that people get way too hung up on top speed. What's relevant to the actual traveler is average speed that determines their travel time to their destination.

Higher average speeds also usually come from the low end than the high end. Take a sample 100 km stretch. Upgrading that stretch from 80 kph to 120 kph is a 50% increase in speed saving 25 mins. Upgrading a 100 km stretch from 200 kph to 300 kph is also a 50% increase in speed but only saves 10 mins for 100 km. There's a lot more savings to be had to make sure urban and suburban bottlenecks are cured. But for the large stretches, if they are going to build an electrified and grade separated line then the marginal cost difference between 200 kph and 300 kph is probably not that much higher.

[elly63]

Originally Posted by SignalHillHiker

Very happy for all of you in that TO-QC corridor. This can only increase the likelihood of even more better things, in more regions.

I wonder how that would affect tourism in the first few years. I'd love to see the finished Olympic stadium but doubt I would go, but I think I'd make an effort to try out the train. Maybe see the stadium at the same time

What's the timeline? Was it five years planning and how long before end of construction?

[SignalHillHiker]

Originally Posted by elly63

I wonder how that would affect tourism in the first few years. I'd love to see the finished Olympic stadium but doubt I would go, but I think I'd make an effort to try out the train. Maybe see the stadium at the same time

What's the timeline? Was it five years planning and how long before end of construction?

Tourism can only benefit, but even just in terms of the local residents/business. It's overdue, deserved, and will be impactful in making that stretch more culturally cohesive, prosperous, etc. It can only be good for Ontario and Quebec, and to quote South Park, "and therefore the world"

You might even inspire other things where it makes sense. I think Calgary to Edmonton will be one of the next ones outside that region. Then a huge, national project will be Vancouver to Calgary, then after that maybe QC to Halifax.

It'll be good for mainland Canada. And we'll be able to pressure the feds, "You're spending SO much of this... at least give us funding for a more comprehensive bus system in St. John's?"

[craner]

Lets get the TCH from Van.-Cal. out the 3rd world realm first before pouring money into a train between the two.

[elly63]

Originally Posted by SignalHillHiker

"You're spending SO much of this... at least give us funding for a more comprehensive bus system in St. John's?"

HSR Newfie Bullet 2.0

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by SignalHillHiker

You might even inspire other things where it makes sense. I think Calgary to Edmonton will be one of the next ones outside that region. Then a huge, national project will be Vancouver to Calgary, then after that maybe QC to Halifax.

CalEd aside, your other suggestions will both never have a market for HSR and would be astronomically expensive. They could be worth normal rail service.

Part of the problem in Canada is that most people have never experienced decent regular speed rail service, so they think they only HSR would be useful.

Vancouver to Calgary and Quebec to Halifax are ~1000 km rail trips. Even with HSR that would be a 4+ hr trip. Very few people would choose that over flying. But these services would be fine as 8-10 hr regular rail service or sleeper services.

[elly63]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

Vancouver to Calgary and Quebec to Halifax are ~1000 km rail trips. Even with HSR that would be a 4+ hr trip. Very few people would choose that over flying.

A four hour trip, I'd pick that in a heartbeat over flying and dealing with an airport

[someone123]

It's too bad. Ideally, the rail connection would go from Fredericton or Saint John across to Montreal via Maine and Sherbrooke (Sherbrooke to Fredericton is only 400 km; far shorter than the current distance travelled by VIA). Obviously this is far from being politically feasible right now. HSR along that route would not be economically feasible but a 100 km/h train would be valuable and overnight trains between Halifax and Montreal would be useful.

Quebec City and Halifax don't have a lot of connections or much integration. I'm not even sure they have a direct flight. It's a bit strange for two cities of their size and distance. Hopefully that will change in the future.

Like I've said before I think that connections inside the Maritimes would be more useful. Again, not HSR, but aiming for 100-200 km/h connections eventually between Halifax, Moncton, and eventually Saint John. The Halifax-Moncton corridor is headed toward 1 million people.

[Truenorth00]

I don't think it actually would be that hard to convince the Feds to build regular Halifax-Moncton-Saint John/Fredricton line. But NS and NB have to actually show they want this. At least fund some actual studies. Has any actual study ever been done?

[someone123]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

I don't think it actually would be that hard to convince the Feds to build regular Halifax-Moncton-Saint John/Fredricton line. But NS and NB have to actually show they want this. At least fund some actual studies. Has any actual study ever been done?

There already is Halifax-Moncton service and it used to be more frequent, so it would to some degree be a matter of bringing back service from not so long ago (2000's?) and then making incremental improvements to that route (for example maybe adding a spur line to YHZ). With higher speeds and frequency it would make sense to adjust the stops to serve different areas. In the 90's or so, you could get on the train at Rockingham or Bedford. Commuter rail along that route existed in 1900.

NS supposedly spend money on an LRT study for Cape Breton, so that's an indication of what the politics there are like. They created an agency to study transportation options within 1 hour of Halifax but apparently they're already shifting the mandate to cover all of NS and are appointing somebody from CB to run it.

But.. this stuff will be dysfunctional until it isn't. A huge proportion of growth in the region is going to Halifax-Moncton (and that is the central corridor within the region as a whole). Eventually politics will reflect that and the demand for travel options will only increase.

[elly63]

So is it likely when all is said and done we will end with something like the TGV in France or maybe another country similar in landscape to us? Just asking, don't know enough about the subject to know but I realize the planning has yet to begin.

[YOWetal]

Originally Posted by elly63

So is it likely when all is said and done we will end with something like the TGV in France or another country? Just asking, don't know enough about the subject to know but I realize the planning has yet to begin.

It seems likely if we build it we won't get a watered down compromise because it is being built from scratch. If the question is how likely is it to be built that is different question. Probably pretty low.

[elly63]

I would hope we would be the ones to build the train engines and cars.

[MonctonRad]

Originally Posted by elly63

HSR Newfie Bullet 2.0

St. John's to Corner Brook in only two hours. Let's gitter done!!!

[MonctonRad]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

Great post nouvellecosse.

I'll just add that people get way too hung up on top speed. What's relevant to the actual traveler is average speed that determines their travel time to their destination.

Higher average speeds also usually come from the low end than the high end. Take a sample 100 km stretch. Upgrading that stretch from 80 kph to 120 kph is a 50% increase in speed saving 25 mins. Upgrading a 100 km stretch from 200 kph to 300 kph is also a 50% increase in speed but only saves 10 mins for 100 km. There's a lot more savings to be had to make sure urban and suburban bottlenecks are cured. But for the large stretches, if they are going to build an electrified and grade separated line then the marginal cost difference between 200 kph and 300 kph is probably not that much higher.

Very true.

And, an even more important multiplier than raising the minimum speed is the simple fact that you are travelling from city centre to city centre, rather than to and from more remote airport locations.

You can waste a lot of time driving to and from the airports, having to arrive an hour or so before departure time, and waiting for your luggage at your destination. This will more than double the time investment in a two hour flight (maybe even triple it).

Very little of this exists with HSR.