Quebec, the French Language, and Quebecois Identity

[New Brisavoine]

Originally Posted by ToxiK

Trump threatened California not to send relief money for the fires it they didn't comply with his whims. What other funding can he threatens to cut to blue states (or even red states) if they dont obey him? He wants to control everything.

He doesn't even control his own cabinet. Musk is en électron libre. Trump's admin 2.0 will be as chaotic as 1.0. A true dictator (think Stalin, or Mao, or Castro) doesn't act like that.

[New Brisavoine]

Originally Posted by Acajack

Most analysts say that the Charlottetown accord was defeated in the ROC because of the perception that it gave up too much to Quebec, whereas in Quebec it was defeated because it was seen as not giving it enough.

Houston, we have a problem.

[New Brisavoine]

Originally Posted by YOWetal

Poilievre looks lost.

I wonder how Trump would pronounce "Poilièvre" if he becomes PM... I expect some mockery. "Carney" would sound more "Anglo-Saxon" to Trumpian ears.

[isaidso]

Originally Posted by Acajack

Most analysts say that the Charlottetown accord was defeated in the ROC because of the perception that it gave up too much to Quebec, whereas in Quebec it was defeated because it was seen as not giving it enough.

So even if Canadians both inside and outside Quebec technically came together to defeat it, it was not really a unifying moment.

Very true although it bears mentioning that lots of Quebecers voted against the accord because it gave up too much power to the provinces. I'm a federalist and was living in Montreal. I voted against the Charlottetown Accord for these exact reasons; as did a good chunk of my fellow Quebecers.

There were certainly votes on separatist lines but also ones based on wanting a more centralist federation.

[New Brisavoine]

Originally Posted by P'tit Renard

and I can only imagine that PQ led sovereignty will bestow on Quebec an era of stagnant le Nouveau Front Populaire type economic policies.

No. The Nouveau Front Populaire is more like the hardliners among QS (not even mainstream QS, but the harliners among QS). You have no idea how lunatically Left the NFP is. You guys get shocked everyday at Trump's new lunacies, but we here get shocked everyday at the NFP's new lunacies. These guys behave as though the Berlin Wall has never fallen.

PQ looks quite center-right as seen from here. Perhaps not right-wing like LR, but center-right like the majority of Macron's MP. CAQ would be like Horizons (Edouard Philippe's party), and Conservatives would be like the right-wing of LR (the middle ground of LR is more like CAQ), if you follow French politics. And of course Québec has nothing like the RN.

[P'tit Renard]

Originally Posted by New Brisavoine

PQ looks quite center-right as seen from here. Perhaps not right-wing like LR, but center-right like the majority of Macron's MP. CAQ would be like Horizons (Edouard Philippe's party), and Conservatives would be like the right-wing of LR (the middle ground of LR is more like CAQ), if you follow French politics. And of course Québec has nothing like the RN.

Given how light PSPP's economic, innovation and strategic industrial policies have been so far, how does it align with Macron's? For all his faults and failures to launch, Macron did have an ambitious economic agenda and innovation strategy for France.

[YOWetal]

Originally Posted by isaidso

Very true although it bears mentioning that lots of Quebecers voted against the accord because it gave up too much power to the provinces. I'm a federalist and was living in Montreal. I voted against the Charlottetown Accord for these exact reasons; as did a good chunk of my fellow Quebecers.

There were certainly votes on separatist lines but also ones based on wanting a more centralist federation.

I'm not in favor of either Meech or Charlottetown but your answer is really why you can't put these things to a vote. It's too easy to vote against any aspect when there isn't a real counterfactual. I bet if you knew a no vote would lead to a coin flip independence vote in three years you'd reconsider though a Yes Quebec vote and a 5 other province no might have been worse.

We see the same with electoral reform. The no votes end up winning whatever is proposed. Some think it doesn't go far enough or prefer another option even if they don't like FPTP.

[ToxiK]

Originally Posted by New Brisavoine

He doesn't even control his own cabinet. Musk is en électron libre. Trump's admin 2.0 will be as chaotic as 1.0. A true dictator (think Stalin, or Mao, or Castro) doesn't act like that.

Trump's cabinet is terrified of getting in the crosshair of his insults; a disapproval from Trump would mean the end of their political career as Republicans (and their security details if they have one...). Trump is turning the USA into a dictatorship, but it is not sure if the dictator will be President Trump or High President Musk... Right now Trump is using Musk as his Godzilla type monster to destroy as much as possible of the checks and balances in the government to give him free reign and absolute power. When the time comes, Trump thinks he will just need to get rid of Musk like he does with everyone else.

[ToxiK]

Originally Posted by P'tit Renard

Interestingly the Conservatives is best placed to deliver this looser less centralized federation, but a sizable contingent of Quebec voters still prefer to vote for the Liberals.

I'm still at a loss where the surge of support for Carney comes from:
https://www.journaldemontreal.com/2025/02/06/menaces-de-donald-trump-un-regain-de-vie-pour-le-plc

The Conservatives also have conservative social values that contrast with Québec social values. The Conservatives are also les pro-environmental policies.

[P'tit Renard]

Originally Posted by ToxiK

The Conservatives also have conservative social values that contrast with Québec social values. The Conservatives are also les pro-environmental policies.

Environmental policies I get given the mythos created around Hydro-Quebec, but in terms of social values I don't think it's that clear cut.

Conservatives are anti-woke (of the Anglo import), which is pretty much in line with Quebec's mainstream. They're also less interested than the Liberals in challenging secularism laws like Loi 21.

PP's Conservatives are not interested in rolling back gay rights nor access to abortion, and has a married lesbian as deputy. So I don't see how the Liberals would be more in tune on social values.

[isaidso]

Originally Posted by YOWetal

I'm not in favor of either Meech or Charlottetown but your answer is really why you can't put these things to a vote. It's too easy to vote against any aspect when there isn't a real counterfactual. I bet if you knew a no vote would lead to a coin flip independence vote in three years you'd reconsider though a Yes Quebec vote and a 5 other province no might have been worse.

We see the same with electoral reform. The no votes end up winning whatever is proposed. Some think it doesn't go far enough or prefer another option even if they don't like FPTP.

I wouldn't have changed my vote if I knew what would follow. At some point one needs to stand one's ground, and let the chips fall as they may, rather than make compromises that you see as damaging to your country.

Canada is already one of the most de-centralized federations in the world. I'm fine with the status quo but further devolution of powers to the provinces would have negative long term consequences. It bears mentioning that we have free trade with foreign countries but not within Canada. We need more unity (the present threats to our country hammer that home) not less.

[P'tit Renard]

Originally Posted by Acajack

I was a bit surprised by that as well. I think one explanation is that we're in a bit of unique "moment", and that people are scrambling a bit in terms of how to react to it..

Another last minute surprise is now PCQ racing ahead of QS. I guess Duhaime's message is finally catching on.

[ToxiK]

Originally Posted by P'tit Renard

Another last minute surprise is now PCQ racing ahead of QS. I guess Duhaime's message is finally catching on.

Or Québec Solidaire's over-wokeness is getting old in mainstream Québec. Haroun Bouazzi didn't help them

[ToxiK]

Originally Posted by P'tit Renard

Environmental policies I get given the mythos created around Hydro-Quebec, but in terms of social values I don't think it's that clear cut.

Conservatives are anti-woke (of the Anglo import), which is pretty much in line with Quebec's mainstream. They're also less interested than the Liberals in challenging secularism laws like Loi 21.

PP's Conservatives are not interested in rolling back gay rights nor access to abortion, and has a married lesbian as deputy. So I don't see how the Liberals would be more in tune on social values.

There are elements in the Conservative Party that would love nothing more than to restrict abortion. Poilievre is for abortion, but the more conservative segments of the party is harming their chances in Québec. Also, the Conservatives are usually more religious.

[ToxiK]

Originally Posted by isaidso

Well, you would have lost your bet. I wouldn't have changed my vote if I knew what would follow. At some point one needs to stand one's ground, and let the chips fall as they may, rather than make compromises that you see as damaging to your country.

Canada is already one of the most de-centralized federations in the world. I'm fine with the status quo but further devolution of powers to the provinces would have negative long term consequences. It bears mentioning that we have free trade with foreign countries but not within Canada. We need more unity (the present threats to our country hammer that home) not less.

What is wrong with more decentralization? What is good for the West is not necessarily good for the East. Now, we let Ontario decide for pretty much everything and somehow the West is blaming Québec. That makes for a good distraction but in the end it is more hurtful to national unity. Flexibility is the key.

[YOWetal]

Originally Posted by ToxiK

There are elements in the Conservative Party that would love nothing more than to restrict abortion. Poilievre is for abortion, but the more conservative segments of the party is harming their chances in Québec. Also, the Conservatives are usually more religious.

Sure but Poilievre is the most pro-choice leader since this was an issue and even in 2011 exactly nothing changed. The most extreme thing possible would be to let provinces delist abortion from provincial funding. Anyway it's not always covered so even that isn't a huge change.

[ToxiK]

Originally Posted by YOWetal

Sure but Poilievre is the most pro-choice leader since this was an issue and even in 2011 exactly nothing changed. The most extreme thing possible would be to let provinces delist abortion from provincial funding. Anyway it's not always covered so even that isn't a huge change.

He is pro-choice, but the fear stays in Québec. Abortion was safe in the U.S. until it wasn't anymore. It is non negotiable for Québec voters, if the Conservatives want to win Québec, they will need to let it know very clearly that abortion is here to stay.

[P'tit Renard]

Originally Posted by ToxiK

He is pro-choice, but the fear stays in Québec. Abortion was safe in the U.S. until it wasn't anymore. It is non negotiable for Québec voters, if the Conservatives want to win Québec, they will need to let it know very clearly that abortion is here to stay.

I guess that's the disconnect. The Liberals haven't legislated the right to abortion nor enshrined it into the Canadian Constitution like France did despite all their bluster, but Quebec bought into all the fear-mongering on TV by the Trudeau Liberals. It would explain why the Trudeau Liberals keep playing the abortion card as a wedge political issue despite doing nothing legislatively.

[YOWetal]

Originally Posted by ToxiK

He is pro-choice, but the fear stays in Québec. Abortion was safe in the U.S. until it wasn't anymore. It is non negotiable for Québec voters, if the Conservatives want to win Québec, they will need to let it know very clearly that abortion is here to stay.

I don't think it's so much a fear but a way to point out the huge cultural disconnect between a big chunk of the Conservative caucus and Quebec. They are religious and seem like from another area to urban elite. The difference is maybe that urban elite either would never vote Conservative anyway or like I think many of us us Anglo swing voters here is more concerned with taxes and economic issues unless it effects us directly. Quebec has a vibes approach to federal elections as they see it as more distant than some of the rest of us. In English Canada where regional sentiments are strong there is still the feeling the Feds are all encompassing and thus the vote is important.

[Acajack]

Yeah it doesn't really matter what PP and his gang say, people in Quebec remain very suspicious of Conservatives and even entertaining the presence of Bible Thumpers (as they do) is almost like a kiss of death for most voters here. I cannot emphasize that enough. (Though if you think about Bill 21, it all makes sense.)