Quebec, the French Language, and Quebecois Identity

[MonctonRad]

Originally Posted by Acajack

Yes, of course, no one in Canada has EVER said "why is French an official language when Punjabi and Tagalog are not?" NEVER. Right?

Yes, but, you know as well as I do that Punjabi, Tagalog or Mandarin will never become official languages in Canada. Neither will any indigenous language, although I could see some accommodation being made for them in a non official manner (such as now with indigenous language schools and indigenous language social services where possible).

You also know that French will never not be an official language in a united Canada. You might grouse about the absence of bilingual customs agents in Coutts AB, but I guarantee you that if I tried to get a stamp at the post office in Baie Comeau, I would have similar difficulties.

The only scenario where French ceases to become an official language in Canada is if Quebec separates. Rump Canada would very likely dispense with bilingualism in such an eventuality.

[kwoldtimer]

Originally Posted by Acajack

Yes, of course, no one in Canada has EVER said "why is French an official language when Punjabi and Tagalog are not?" NEVER. Right?

Also, people always focus on the powers Quebec has (or that people think it has), and not on the powers it needs.

(This can potentially apply to any province, BTW.)

No one of any consequence.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by MonctonRad

Yes, but, you know as well as I do that Punjabi, Tagalog or Mandarin will never become official languages in Canada. Neither will any indigenous language, although I could see some accommodation being made for them in a non official manner (such as now with indigenous language schools and indigenous language social services where possible).

You also know that French will never not be an official language in a united Canada. You might grouse about the absence of bilingual customs agents in Coutts AB, but I guarantee you that if I tried to get a stamp at the post office in Baie Comeau, I would have similar difficulties.

The only scenario where French ceases to become an official language in Canada is if Quebec separates. Rump Canada would very likely dispense with bilingualism in such an eventuality.

Largely agree with most of this (though I don't care about Coutts AB) though a likely scenario is French remaining official but gradually being reduced in relevancy to that of Irish Gaelic in Ireland.

[New Brisavoine]

Originally Posted by MonctonRad

You also know that French will never not be an official language in a united Canada.

If that's the case, then why do so many people in Québec support the independence movement? Are Québécois people stupid?

[MonctonRad]

Originally Posted by Acajack

Largely agree with most of this (though I don't care about Coutts AB) though a likely scenario is French remaining official but gradually being reduced in relevancy to that of Irish Gaelic in Ireland.

You might not care about Coutts but I recall lio bragging about torturing unsuspecting border agents at small border crossings elsewhere in the country.

It would be a long slide for Canadian French to sink to the depths of Irish Gaelic. I can't imagine that ever happening (especially knowing the stubbornness and resolve of Acadians after nearly 300 years of being an oppressed minority in the Maritimes. I can't imagine the Quebecois are any less stubborn or determined.

[MolsonExport]

Originally Posted by New Brisavoine

If that's the case, then why do so many people in Québec support the independence movement? Are Québécois people stupid?

Is this a serious question? You already know the answer. You've posted hundreds of times on the subject.

[MonctonRad]

Originally Posted by New Brisavoine

If that's the case, then why do so many people in Québec support the independence movement? Are Québécois people stupid?

Never said that.

I chalk it up to insecurity, paranoia, a certain bitterness over what might have been, and, romanticizing of a past perceived glory which might or might not have been real.

[MolsonExport]

Originally Posted by Acajack

Yes, of course, no one in Canada has EVER said "why is French an official language when Punjabi and Tagalog are not?" NEVER. Right?

Nobody of consequence has ever said this, nor would anyone ever think that it is even a remote possibility. As far as strengthening your argument, this weakens it.

[YOWetal]

Originally Posted by Acajack

Largely agree with most of this (though I don't care about Coutts AB) though a likely scenario is French remaining official but gradually being reduced in relevancy to that of Irish Gaelic in Ireland.

Irish Gaelic is a bit, well more than a bit, of a stretch. I mean it's about as likely as English ending up like English in India with new immigrant groups forming their own communities and speaking English only to each other.

Quebec is always going to be an integral part of Canada in any foreseeable scenario. Even as a 15% region which is probably a hundred years away. Italians are only 8% of Switzerland though it's status is certainly not what French has now it's a lot more than Gaelic.

[New Brisavoine]

Originally Posted by MolsonExport

Is this a serious question? You already know the answer. You've posted hundreds of times on the subject.

https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ma%C3%AFeutique_(philosophie)

[MolsonExport]

Quebec has the tools that it needs to ensure the primacy of French in the Province. Yes, the weight of Quebec in the confederation will probably slowly decline, but there are scenarios in which Quebec could arrest this decline, for example, by taking in a larger share of immigrants from the expanding francophone-ish world outside Metropolitan France, such as the Magreb and Central Africa. The ROC may not always grow as fast as it has been this past decade.

[New Brisavoine]

Originally Posted by MonctonRad

You might not care about Coutts but I recall lio bragging about torturing unsuspecting border agents at small border crossings elsewhere in the country.

Actually it was me, though I didn't use the word "torturing", and it wasn't a small border crossing, since it was the main border crossing on the I5 between Seattle and Vancouver.

[New Brisavoine]

Originally Posted by YOWetal

Italians are only 8% of Switzerland though it's status is certainly not what French has now it's a lot more than Gaelic.

Ticino is next door to an Italian-speaking country of 60 million people. I'm sure if the USA were a French-speaking country, you'd have no one in Québec worrying of seeing the French language disappear there, and probably no one asking to secede from Canada. It is Anglo-Canada that would worry actually.

[New Brisavoine]

Originally Posted by MolsonExport

but there are scenarios in which Quebec could arrest this decline, for example, by taking in a larger share of immigrants from the expanding francophone-ish world outside Metropolitan France, such as the Magreb and Central Africa.

That creates its own problems, as per the Islamic veil debate.

Originally Posted by MolsonExport

The ROC may not always grow as fast as it has been this past decade.

Growth is the raison d'être of the ROC. If there is no more growth, then what alternate "national" myth or aspiration would remain for the ROC? Just being a duller and colder version of the US without the Silicon Valley and all the fun things the US have?

Population growth is to the ROC what the Western frontier was to the US. In their case they have replaced the Western frontier (which is now over) with other myths and aspirations that elate people: reaching the Moon, Mars, developing the most advanced tech in the world, etc. Canada cannot afford these.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by New Brisavoine

Ticino is next door to an Italian-speaking country of 60 million people. I'm sure if the USA were a French-speaking country, you'd have no one in Québec worrying of seeing the French language disappear there, and probably no one asking to secede from Canada. It is Anglo-Canada that would worry actually.

Switzerland also has language territoriality, whereas Canada does not.

So basically a German-speaking Swiss person doesn't have transportable language rights into the regions of the country where other languages are spoken. If you move to a French speaking part of the country, everything is gonna be in French. This differs from Canada where anglophones and francophones have (some) transportable language rights when crossing our language divides.

For francophones, it's a very theoretical thing in 95+% of the ROC (with the exception of K-12 schools for your kids).

For anglophones, it leads to the erosion of French in Quebec, in spite of the province's best (or worst, according to MonctonRad) efforts to prevent English from taking over.

I've been to Ticino (Svizzera italiana) but I am not that aware of the language situation there, as much as I am for French-speaking Switzerland.

I can tell you that in francophone Switzerland there is basically no intrusion of or erosion towards German.

And the francophones in Switzerland are less of a % than francophones are in Canada.

[New Brisavoine]

I saw the German-speaking president of Switzerland on French television the other day (because she criticized France, and alas rightly so, in an interview with some Francophone Swiss journalists, saying if the federal Swiss government doesn't stop uncontrolled subsidies to all sorts of social activists/special interests, they'll end up like France which can't even control its budget anymore, etc), and frankly she spoke better French than I've ever heard your Anglo PMs speak it... So much so that at first I thought she was a Francophone Swiss politician.

That's the bit in her interview which has gone viral in France (at first I swear I thought she was a Francophone with just a heavy accent as some Francophone Swiss have, but no, she's really a native German speaker living in the German-speaking part of Switzerland): https://x.com/JL7508/status/1886002693887434831

Regarding what she says: I think we should all be some Swiss cantons. They are the only serious people in the Western world.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by MolsonExport

Quebec has the tools that it needs to ensure the primacy of French in the Province. Yes, the weight of Quebec in the confederation will probably slowly decline, but there are scenarios in which Quebec could arrest this decline, for example, by taking in a larger share of immigrants from the expanding francophone-ish world outside Metropolitan France, such as the Magreb and Central Africa. The ROC may not always grow as fast as it has been this past decade.

I thought that in the 2020s we weren't supposed to speak for other groups and define their "needs" for them, and confidently tell them that they're met?

Double that if they're a minority relative to you.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by MonctonRad

You might not care about Coutts but I recall lio bragging about torturing unsuspecting border agents at small border crossings elsewhere in the country.

It would be a long slide for Canadian French to sink to the depths of Irish Gaelic. I can't imagine that ever happening (especially knowing the stubbornness and resolve of Acadians after nearly 300 years of being an oppressed minority in the Maritimes. I can't imagine the Quebecois are any less stubborn or determined.

These things happen fast. You should check out how quickly Irish Gaelic was replaced as the main vernacular in Ireland. Since we are using that example.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by New Brisavoine

I saw the German-speaking president of Switzerland on French television the other day (because she criticized France, and alas rightly so, in an interview with some Francophone Swiss journalists, saying if the federal Swiss government doesn't stop uncontrolled subsidies to all sorts of social activists/special interests, they'll end up like France which can't even control its budget anymore, etc), and frankly she spoke better French than I've ever heard your Anglo PMs speak it... So much so that at first I thought she was a Francophone Swiss politician.

That's the bit in her interview which has gone viral in France (at first I swear I thought she was a Francophone with just a heavy accent as some Francophone Swiss have, but no, she's really a native German speaker living in the German-speaking part of Switzerland): https://x.com/JL7508/status/1886002693887434831

I think we should all be some Swiss cantons. They are the only serious people in the Western world.

Her French is fantastic, though I've seen Swiss presidents who could only speak German and were dubbed on francophone newscasts. I sometimes watch their news on TV5.

I don't think it's a big deal to Swiss francophones, because they manage their affairs on their own mostly. Similar to what ToxiK said: if Quebec could manage more of its own affairs, we wouldn't care as much about the bilingualism of "Canada".

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by MolsonExport

Nobody of consequence has ever said this, nor would anyone ever think that it is even a remote possibility. As far as strengthening your argument, this weakens it.

It's not "actually saying it", but when cities like Toronto or Calgary publish materials in something like 29 different languages but not French, this could be indicative of the attitude of actors "of consequence".

And please don't tell me that every single language that they publish in has way more speakers (first and second language) than French in their cities.