Quebec, the French Language, and Quebecois Identity

[MonctonRad]

Originally Posted by New Brisavoine

Îles de la Madeleine bilingual? That's new to me!! I rather thought they were the übermost Francophones in Canada along with the Saguenay area.

There is one island in the Magdalens Archipelago that is filled with pesky anglophones (Entry Island I believe).

Sorry to disappoint you.

[MonctonRad]

Originally Posted by Acajack

I do like Simon Jolin-Barrette who is a rising star in Quebec politics. He is widely considered to be a crypto-indépendantiste and almost talks like one much of the time. He gets taunted all the time on social media by PQ people who urge him to "come home" once and for all.

Gee, sounds like you.

[le calmar]

Originally Posted by Acajack

Actually, the Acadien accent was the first accent I spoke with, since it was the accent both my parents had. Since we lived in anglo areas for much of my childhood it persisted for a fairly long time (English outside the home, French with an Acadien accent with my parents and siblings at home.)

I have a pretty standard Québécois radio-canadien-ish accent today after living here for so long, but can easily take on the Acadien accent. It even comes back naturally to some degree as soon as I am in the Maritimes for a few days visiting family.

When I come back to Quebec after a trip down there my Québécois friends sometimes notice a slight accent change.

Interesting. Similar situation with me and the average French spoken in most of France. After spending a few years there, my Quebec accent became unnoticeable most of the time (although people like New Brisavoine would probably notice something is off). There were times where my accent would make a slight comeback, but then people would usually ask if I was Belgian.

It always takes a few days to adjust when I go back there, but the transition has become increasingly easy over time. Most Quebec tourists would not bother changing their accent like I do when they visit France, but it became a habit for me at this point so I just stick to it. And just like you, it even lingers a bit when I return home.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by le calmar

Interesting. Similar situation with me and the average French spoken in most of France. After spending a few years there, my Quebec accent became unnoticeable most of the time (although people like New Brisavoine would probably notice something is off). There were times where my accent would make a slight comeback, but then people would usually ask if I was Belgian.

It always takes a few days to adjust when I go back there, but the transition has become increasingly easy over time. Most Quebec tourists would not bother changing their accent like I do when they visit France, but it became a habit for me at this point so I just stick to it. And just like you, it even lingers a bit when I return home.

Depending on the context, I also change my accent a bit when I am in France. Not because I am ashamed of it. For example, I will always speak with my natural accent from here if I am having drinks or dinner with French people in Paris.

But sometimes for quick interactions I'll try to use a more neutral accent. That's because a lot of French people pick up on the accent immediately and want to have this conversation about Quebec, and "les grands espaces", and blablablah.

I know it sounds cliché but it really does happen. (And it is always meant to be nice.)

But sometimes you just want to get a pack of chewing gum and catch your train!

[le calmar]

Originally Posted by Acajack

But sometimes for quick interactions I'll try to use a more neutral accent. That's because a lot of French people pick up on the accent immediately and want to have this conversation about Quebec, and "les grands espaces", and blablablah.

I know it sounds cliché but it really does happen. (And it is always meant to be nice.)

Yes, and that's totally the reason why I figured it would be best to let go of the accent. What you described happened 90% of the time I interacted with someone, even SNCF agents on the train who were checking my tickets. It's all fun at first but it gets old after a while. Most other Quebecers I knew who were staying there long term ended up ditching the accent too, save one or two who decided to stick with it, albeit toned down.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by le calmar

Yes, and that's totally the reason why I figured it would be best to let go of the accent. What you described happened 90% of the time I interacted with someone, even SNCF agents on the train who were checking my tickets. It's all fun at first but it gets old after a while. Most other Quebecers I knew who were staying there long term ended up ditching the accent too, save one or two who decided to stick with it, albeit toned down.

As I said, it really is meant to be nice and friendly. Now I am sure that New Brisavoine is probably shocked to hear all of this, and that even Parisians can be nice in this way to total strangers.

But it's true!

[New Brisavoine]

Originally Posted by MonctonRad

There is one island in the Magdalens Archipelago that is filled with pesky anglophones (Entry Island I believe).

Sorry to disappoint you.

94% of the population in the Îles de la Madeleine have French as their mother tongue: https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C3%8Eles_de_la_Madeleine#D%C3%A9mographie

I wish I were equally "disappointed" with the rest of North America...

[le calmar]

Originally Posted by Acajack

As I said, it really is meant to be nice and friendly. Now I am sure that New Brisavoine is probably shocked to hear all of this, and that even Parisians can be nice in this way to total strangers.

But it's true!

Paris was definitely no exception. Which surprised me given the reputation Parisians have to be "chiants". There were even a few times where random Parisians would come out of nowhere on the street to ask "êtes-vous Québécois"? My Parisians friends were always astonished when that happened.

[New Brisavoine]

Originally Posted by le calmar

After spending a few years there, my Quebec accent became unnoticeable most of the time (although people like New Brisavoine would probably notice something is off)

Yeah, I was going to say "je demande à voir !".

It's impossible for the French Canadians to totally hide their accent in France. The Russians and the Germans* can, but neither the French Canadians, nor the Anglophones, nor the Spanish or Italian speakers can. 'tis the way it is.

*For example last night I watched a documentary about the engineering prowess of Airbus, and there was a female engineer speaking French in the documentary, at first I thought she was French, but now I have suspicions she's German, both because of her last name, her haircut (French women don't cut their hair like her; German women do), and a very little trace of je-ne-sais-quoi of German accent at the very end of her interview.

It's spectacular how un-accentuated some German and Russian speakers can speak French. In the documentary there was also a Spanish engineer, and oh boy, he had such a thick accent when he spoke English (and of course he made no efforts to even speak French, which is typical).

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by MonctonRad

There is one island in the Magdalens Archipelago that is filled with pesky anglophones (Entry Island I believe).

Sorry to disappoint you.

Yes, that is definitely an interesting demographic quirk, isn't it?

I've never met an anglo from Les Îles, however.

Many of the Madelinots from the other islands I've met are unilingual francophones or have very shaky English.

So perhaps they don't mix with the anglo island much, or the anglos speak to them in French.

[New Brisavoine]

Originally Posted by le calmar

Yes, and that's totally the reason why I figured it would be best to let go of the accent. What you described happened 90% of the time I interacted with someone, even SNCF agents on the train who were checking my tickets. It's all fun at first but it gets old after a while. Most other Quebecers I knew who were staying there long term ended up ditching the accent too, save one or two who decided to stick with it, albeit toned down.

Not all accents get picked up though. Maghreban and Black African French accents would never lead to people marveling about your accent or asking you questions about where you come from. At the supermarket these days, a lot of staff speak with a Black African accent (i.e. they are immigrants from Africa and not born in France), and honestly I don't even pay attention to it anymore (neither do the other clients). Just sometimes I wonder how they can be in France when supposedly all our borders are closed to migrant workers...

A Maghreban accent these days, however, would lead a lot of people to get annoyed with the person, because of all the things that are going on (see all the recent shenanigans with Algeria for instance), but people would never tell it to you in your face, because the French tend to hide their true feelings always.

[Acajack]

Grosse-Île is actually the island where most of the anglophones live (500). Île d'Entrée only has about 70 people.

I do have to say I like the place name "Old Harry" a lot. It evokes seafaring culture, fog, fishermen and lighthouses splendidly well.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by OldDartmouthMark

I don’t think it’s that complicated. IMHO, it’s all about what value Quebec would have for them. Natural resources, electricity, a viable port… all would add value and security to the US. Whatever your culture or preferred language is would be of no concern to them. Quebec’s official language would be English, but the people would be free to speak whatever language they want amongst themselves. Not unlike the areas of the US with strong Spanish speaking cultures.

At this point, however, it’s a non-issue as Trump only has 4 years in office, and I suspect, outside of a massive military invasion, it would take much longer to play out. So you’re safe!

This would be a non-starter for Quebec, though. There is no way that Quebec would agree willingly to this type of relationship with the US. It's the type of evolution that Quebec has always strongly resisted within Canada. Exactly what it doesn't want. Quebec would rather be poor(er) than go for this. Trust me.

And the Americans would be fighting an insurrection for years or decades. Not worth it when there are other options.

That's why I say a Puerto Rico-style status might be the best option for both parties.

[le calmar]

Originally Posted by New Brisavoine

It's impossible for the French Canadians to totally hide their accent in France.

Speaking from experience here, but whenever I spoke French with as little Quebec accent as possible, and someone would nevertheless notice an accent, they would always almost always assume it was belgian or sometimes c’hti. Only in rare cases people would correctly guess it was a Quebec accent.

[Acajack]

Starting at 5:00. Can you tell?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xPg_BNwPZmo

[YOWetal]

Originally Posted by Acajack

This would be a non-starter for Quebec, though. There is no way that Quebec would agree willingly to this type of relationship with the US. It's the type of evolution that Quebec has always strongly resisted within Canada. Exactly what it doesn't want. Quebec would rather be poor(er) than go for this. Trust me.

And the Americans would be fighting an insurrection for years or decades. Not worth it when there are other options.

That's why I say a Puerto Rico-style status might be the best option for both parties.

I think a state could have French as its official language. The US doesn't have an official language but would provide services only in English. I guess having English only post offices and passport offices would grate on Quebec but having the right to vote and being a decent sized state would give them more language protection than being a territory.

[New Brisavoine]

Originally Posted by Acajack

Starting at 5:00. Can you tell?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xPg_BNwPZmo

There's a tiny something. But she speaks too little, and the quality of the sound is not very good, so you can't really pronounce a judgment, so to speak.

Interestingly, French Canadian singers have no accent when they sing (I've never understood why their accent disappears when they sing, except perhaps Charlebois), but Diane Tell keeps an accent when she sings (which is kind of cute).

But singers like her for instance, frankly they might as well be French (whereas the minute she would speak she would betray her French Canadian accent):

• Video Link

Whenever they play French Canadian singers on the radio, I never know they are Canadian. It's only much later that I discover that they are French. Same for the Anglophone Canadian singers by the way (they are just assumed to be American singers here).

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by New Brisavoine

There's a tiny something. But she speaks too little, and the quality of the sound is not very good, so you can't really pronounce a judgment, so to speak.

Interestingly, French Canadian singers have no accent when they sing (I've never understood why their accent disappears when they sing, except perhaps Charlebois), but Diane Tell keeps an accent when she sings (which is kind of cute).

But singers like her for instance, frankly they might as well be French (whereas the minute she would speak she would betray her French Canadian accent):

• Video Link

Whenever they play French Canadian singers on the radio, I never know they are Canadian. It's only much later that I discover that they are French. Same for the Anglophone Canadian singers by the way (they are just assumed to be American singers here).

This was something that was often said about the Beatles when they first crossed the Atlantic. That they basically sounded like plain Americans when they sang. Of course they were among the first British bands to cross over in what eventually became the British Rock n Roll Invasion of American.

[New Brisavoine]

Originally Posted by YOWetal

I think a state could have French as its official language. The US doesn't have an official language but would provide services only in English. I guess having English only post offices and passport offices would grate on Quebec but having the right to vote and being a decent sized state would give them more language protection than being a territory.

Yeah, but that would soon hit the wall when the Québécois representatives and senators entering the US Congress, most of them from Bloc Québécois one would presume, would want to speak French in Congress.

Then it'd probably lead to this: (which would itself lead to immediate insurrection against US rule in Québec)

• Video Link

Just imagine the Québécois representatives and senators in Congress being accused of being "rude and racist" because of speaking French...

PS: I really pity this woman. It's sad what the Americans have done to the Hawaiians.

[big T]

Originally Posted by Acajack

This would be a non-starter for Quebec, though. There is no way that Quebec would agree willingly to this type of relationship with the US. It's the type of evolution that Quebec has always strongly resisted within Canada. Exactly what it doesn't want. Quebec would rather be poor(er) than go for this. Trust me.

And the Americans would be fighting an insurrection for years or decades. Not worth it when there are other options.

That's why I say a Puerto Rico-style status might be the best option for both parties.

I’ve pretty much come to the exact same conclusion.

I still think if Canada implodes under Trump’s repeated assaults, it will be with Alberta and maybe Saskatchewan breaking off first, presumably to join as State(s). This would only be made possible following an extended period of economic hardships brought on by a combination of Trump sanctions and Canadian federal measures working directly against their local economic interest. It’s thankfully not looking too likely for now, but as beatings continue who knows what could happen.

Following this, Canada may not immediately cease to exist as a viable entity bordering the US, but it would be gravely diminished. If the US comes forward with a tailored deal for Quebec to "join" as an associated territory with significant home rule, there is a chance a referendum might pass. This would require way more finesse and understanding of Quebec’s internal dynamics and aspirations than the Trump administration seems capable of, however, so I fully expect them to make an offer more along the lines of what OldDartmouthMark laid out, and Quebec deciding to break off entirely and go it alone. Whether the US would tolerate that, and what happens beyond that point, I have no clue.

TL,DR: if the first domino falls, we’re all fucked.