Quebec, the French Language, and Quebecois Identity

[Truenorth00]

Trying to change the topic now?

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by New Brisavoine

Yeah, this is not a period that should favor the separatist cause.

Hard to say. Things could go either way.

If we look at history, separatist movements have often profited from periods of instability, to slip through amidst the chaos.

I've said it before that many countries didn't become independent by following a long, logical, inexorable road towards nationhood, but simply because a window of opportunity opened up in the historical context, and it just sort of happened.

It's unclear to me if this period will lead to something like that or if on the other hand Canadian unity will emerge strong than ever. (Even if everyone on SSP seems to be betting on this.)

We shall see, I guess.

[dreambrother808]

Originally Posted by Acajack

Hard to say. Things could go either way.

If we look at history, separatist movements have often profited from periods of instability, to slip through amidst the chaos.

I've said it before that many countries didn't become independent by following a long, logical, inexorable road towards nationhood, but simply because a window of opportunity opened up in the historical context, and it just sort of happened.

It's unclear to me if this period will lead to something like that or if on the other hand Canadian unity will emerge strong than ever. (Even if everyone on SSP seems to be betting on this.)

We shall see, I guess.

The chaos speculation opening a door to separation seemed logical until Trump went full annexation and kept repeating it. At that existential threat level, it becomes more likely we band together as an act of mutual survival, as we have seen.

[New Brisavoine]

Originally Posted by Acajack

Hard to say. Things could go either way.

If we look at history, separatist movements have often profited from periods of instability, to slip through amidst the chaos.

I've said it before that many countries didn't become independent by following a long, logical, inexorable road towards nationhood, but simply because a window of opportunity opened up in the historical context, and it just sort of happened.

It's unclear to me if this period will lead to something like that or if on the other hand Canadian unity will emerge strong than ever. (Even if everyone on SSP seems to be betting on this.)

We shall see, I guess.

I don't think Canadian unity will emerge stronger than ever (see for example the little "gem" found in that Le Devoir editorial yesterday), but my feeling is many undecided Québec voters will not want to try separation from Canada in such an uncertain climate.

But as I've said before, things change quickly and by the 2026 mid-terms elections Trump could be history already.

PS: The only scenario in which I can imagine that the current situation would favor the soverignist camp would be if Poiliève is elected PM, and he then signs a deal with Trump outrageously favoring the industries of Alberta, and bad for the industries of Québec. In that case, yes, that would propel the sovereignist vote.

[New Brisavoine]

Originally Posted by dreambrother808

The chaos speculation opening a door to separation seemed logical until Trump went full annexation and kept repeating it. At that existential threat level, it becomes more likely we band together as an act of mutual survival, as we have seen.

Yeah, I think so too (except in the Poilièvre scenario imagined above, which is not so outlandish).

[Truenorth00]

So you going to clarify if you think the US should get to dictate how Canadians (including Quebecers) live because we're right next door?

You said the Chinese Communist Party should have that right over the Japanese and South Koreans.

[Acajack]

I think a lot of it will depend on whether the current united Team Canada common front (minus Alberta) can hold it together in the face of the worst Trump can throw at us.

Believe it or not, right now is the easy part, as the full effects of the tariffs have not even been felt and we don't even know if there will be a Part Deux or Part Trois to this.

Once the economic impacts start to be felt, conflicting interests between the provinces are sure to arise (we've already got Alberta and nothing has taken effect yet) so it will be more challenging to hold it all together on a common front.

[New Brisavoine]

Originally Posted by Acajack

Believe it or not, right now is the easy part, as the full effects of the tariffs have not even been felt and we don't even know if there will be a Part Deux or Part Trois to this.

Well, today I was reading the Twitter feed of the former French ambassador in Washington DC (who is always well informed about international politics, and the US in particular), and apparently there's already a Part Deux planned by your favorite president.

Originally Posted by Acajack

Once the economic impacts start to be felt, conflicting interests between the provinces are sure to arise (we've already got Alberta and nothing has taken effect yet) so it will be more challenging to hold it all together on a common front.

The ambassador also believes that the countries currently 'bombant le torse' and saying martially that they will retaliate (Canada and Mexico, and very soon the EU) will rather quickly change their tone and cave in. I don't always agree with him, but he has far more experience of international diplomacy than any of us here.



Right now we're at the "coups de menton" (i.e. "bravado" by Can/Mex, and soon EU) and "s'enivrer de mots" (i.e. "getting drunk on words", 'we'll retaliate big time', etc) stage, but "essayer de négocier", "faire des concessions" and "essayer de s'en tirer (chacun) de son côté" (i.e. "each one separately trying to save their own skin", no united front against Trump) will soon follow once "emotional reactions have subsided".

Lots of colloquial French expressions there.

[New Brisavoine]

Originally Posted by New Brisavoine

and "essayer de s'en tirer (chacun) de son côté" (i.e. "each one separately trying to save their own skin", no united front against Trump) will soon follow once "emotional reactions have subsided".

Ah, it seems we're already at the "each one separately trying to save their own skin" stage faster than expected.

Donald Trump and Mexican president announce one-month pause in US tariffs

Claudia Sheinbaum says she agreed to send 10,000 troops to ‘prevent drug trafficking’ in deal to stave off threat of levies

Trump confirmed the deal shortly afterwards on his Truth Social network. He said he had held a “very friendly conversation” with Sheinbaum [...]

He said the tariffs would be paused for a month during negotiations involving senior Mexican officials, the US secretary of state, Marco Rubio, the US treasury secretary, Scott Bessent, and the US commerce secretary, Howard Lutnick. “I look forward to participating in those negotiations, with President Sheinbaum, as we attempt to achieve a ‘deal’ between our two countries​,” he added.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2025/f...nces-one-month-pause-on-trump-us-tariffs

[Loco101]

Originally Posted by Acajack

Interesting point. Though in this case it’s not really a totally different name. It’s the historic English (Ottawa) and French (Outaouais) transliteration of the exact same Indigenous word that is something like Addaweh or Ataweh. Based on the logical sound and pronunciation of English and French, respectively.

Like Brazil and Brésil for Brasil.

And part of the Ottawa River is the border lake, Lake Temiskaming (also can be spelled Timiskaming) in English and lac Témiscamingue in French.

One thing I can think of in Canada is the highest point are at the same point on the border of Quebec and Newfoundland and Labrador. In Quebec it is called Mont D'Iberville while in NL it is Mount Caubvick.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by Loco101

And part of the Ottawa River is the border lake, Lake Temiskaming (also can be spelled Timiskaming) in English and lac Témiscamingue in French.

One thing I can think of in Canada is the highest point are at the same point on the border of Quebec and Newfoundland and Labrador. In Quebec it is called Mont D'Iberville while in NL it is Mount Caubvick.

Good example.

[MonctonRad]

Originally Posted by Acajack

I think a lot of it will depend on whether the current united Team Canada common front (minus Alberta) can hold it together in the face of the worst Trump can throw at us.

Believe it or not, right now is the easy part, as the full effects of the tariffs have not even been felt and we don't even know if there will be a Part Deux or Part Trois to this.

Once the economic impacts start to be felt, conflicting interests between the provinces are sure to arise (we've already got Alberta and nothing has taken effect yet) so it will be more challenging to hold it all together on a common front.

Betting against Canada are we?

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by MonctonRad

Betting against Canada are we?

Nope. Just being realistic.

Though Canada's odds did get a bit better yesterday.

[Nashe]

Originally Posted by Acajack

Nope. Just being realistic.
Though Canada's odds did get a bit better yesterday.

Disparate groups always get warm and tingly with a sudden, common enemy.

[le calmar]

I said PSPP was in a delicate position last week, and I think he still is today in the midst of this potential tariff war, threats of annexation, etc. Perhaps even increasingly so as the rhetoric has gained in intensity. To be fair, it's no easy task for him right now to sell Quebecers on the idea that Quebec would fare better if it was a country.

I'm not sure coming out to say that Trump was right about the border issues was the smartest thing to do either. I mean, Trump has a point about some of this stuff, especially immigration, but it was perhaps not the greatest timing when everyone was comparing him to a dictator. Although I think he tried to clarify that statement afterwards.

The PQ is still going to win the next election, but I think winning that referendum may be a bit of a long shot if the Trump administration decides to keep playing this trick the next 4 years. That said there's still the Bill 21 test in Supreme Court that should keep things interesting depending on what the outcome is. A complete collapse of the economy post-tariffs, if they were to be implemented, could also be a game changer.

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by Acajack

Nope. Just being realistic.

Though Canada's odds did get a bit better yesterday.

I would think Trump should really jolt Quebecers into thinking about the sovereignty question. He's looking at Canada the way McKinley was looking at Hawaii. He won't be the last. This makes the idea of an independent Quebec a lot more questionable. More than likely a breakup of Canada may well mean forced inclusion into the US for all of us. At what point will they say, "That's where we get a ton of resources, and where a lot of the electricity for the Northeast comes from. We should secure it."

[MonctonRad]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

I would think Trump should really jolt Quebecers into thinking about the sovereignty question. He's looking at Canada the way McKinley was looking at Hawaii. He won't be the last. This makes the idea of an independent Quebec a lot more questionable. More than likely a breakup of Canada may well mean forced inclusion into the US for all of us. At what point will they say, "That's where we get a ton of resources, and where a lot of the electricity for the Northeast comes from. We should secure it."

Agreed. The combination of Quebec secessionism and Trumpian expansionism would be lethal for Canada. We might survive one of these crises, but, the two together would be insurmountable.

[EnvisionSaintJohn]

Originally Posted by MonctonRad

Agreed. The combination of Quebec secessionism and Trumpian expansionism would be lethal for Canada. We might survive one of these crises, but, the two together would be insurmountable.

How exactly is Quebec going to separate? The yes side sure as hell wouldn't win an independence referendum today, unless it was rigged.

... it's not like the US has a history of rigging foreign elections.

[New Brisavoine]

Originally Posted by MonctonRad

Betting against Canada are we?

He's un-Canadian. He should be cancelled I say.

[YOWetal]

Originally Posted by le calmar

I said PSPP was in a delicate position last week, and I think he still is today in the midst of this potential tariff war, threats of annexation, etc. Perhaps even increasingly so as the rhetoric has gained in intensity. To be fair, it's no easy task for him right now to sell Quebecers on the idea that Quebec would fare better if it was a country.

I'm not sure coming out to say that Trump was right about the border issues was the smartest thing to do either. I mean, Trump has a point about some of this stuff, especially immigration, but it was perhaps not the greatest timing when everyone was comparing him to a dictator. Although I think he tried to clarify that statement afterwards.

The PQ is still going to win the next election, but I think winning that referendum may be a bit of a long shot if the Trump administration decides to keep playing this trick the next 4 years. That said there's still the Bill 21 test in Supreme Court that should keep things interesting depending on what the outcome is. A complete collapse of the economy post-tariffs, if they were to be implemented, could also be a game changer.

Could the CAQ turnaround over this? Legault doesn't get as big a bump as Ford by being a cheerleader for Team Canada but anyone pragmatic has to see the advantage of a steady pair of hands right now. CAQ have been good economic managers by any objective measure.