Quebec, the French Language, and Quebecois Identity

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by kwoldtimer

Well, at the moment, Trump seems to have sole control of deciding what's in the American interest and his vision is a return of the economy to what he perceives as a glorious past. I don't think it will end well, but there you are.

That phrase about countries having interests presumed a rational order with clear national interests. With Trump we're back to "L'etat. C'est moi."

[kwoldtimer]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

That phrase about countries having interests presumed a rational order with clear national interests. With Trump we're back to "L'etat. C'est moi."

Unless the Congress gets it's act together or the Supreme Court is called on to act, that's pretty much it.

[New Brisavoine]

Originally Posted by kwoldtimer

A vivid reminder that countries do not have friends, they have interests. Living next to the giant in the age of Pax Americana has lulled many Canadians into forgetting that basic reality.

This is actually a quote from de Gaulle.

In the original French: "Les Etats n'ont pas d'amis, seulement des intérêts." Although Wikiquote says that this quote, which is often repeated and attributed to him, seems to have no clear source, so it's "alleged to have been said by de Gaulle" (L'Express magazine apparently reported in 1965 that he said to his minister of foreign affairs in a cabinet meeting: "A state worthy of the name has no friends").

Another one by him which I quite like is: "Les traités, voyez-vous, sont comme les jeunes filles et les roses : ça dure ce que ça dure." This seems to apply quite well to your commercial treaties with the US... ("ça dure ce que ça dure" = "it lasts as long as it lasts")

His quote is a reference to the rose in this famous poem from the French Renaissance which is translated in English here (taught in Québec schools I presume? although classical literature tends to be lost these days...): https://frenchmoments.eu/mignonne-allons-voir-si-la-rose/

[New Brisavoine]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

That phrase about countries having interests presumed a rational order with clear national interests. With Trump we're back to "L'etat. C'est moi."

"L'Etat c'est moi" is an invented quote (still very popular in the Anglophone world). It was invented by the English enemies of Louis XIV back in the days, and later propagated by the republicans in France, to decry the monarchy.

In reality Louis XIV never said it. Quite the opposite, on his death bed his last words to his courtiers (reported by Dangeau, one of his close courtiers) was: "Je m'en vais, mais l'Etat demeurera toujours." (i.e. "I am leaving, but the State shall always remain.").

Dangeau reported that the king made a last speech to the people gathered around his deathbed, saying that he was leaving them with great regret, and that they should serve the new king well, because he was only a 5 y/o child, and he could face lots of troubles, such as Louis XIV had faced in his young age. He then told them he was leaving, but the State would always remain, and they should be faithfully attached to the State, and be an example to all the subjects of the kingdom, and be all united and in agreement with each other, because union is the strength of a State, and they should do their duties well, and hopefully they would think about him sometimes [after his death]. At the end of this little speech, Dangeau says all the assembled people started weeping, and when the king saw in a mirror two of his servants weeping at the feet of his bed he told them: "Why do you cry? Have you thought I was immortal? As for me, I have never believed I was, and you must be prepared to lose me."

So, quite far from "L'Etat c'est moi"! But the caricature propagated by his English foes has unfortunately stuck.

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by New Brisavoine

"L'Etat c'est moi" is an invented quote (still very popular in the Anglophone world). It was invented by the English enemies of Louis XIV back in the days, and later propagated by the republicans in France, to decry the monarchy.

In reality Louis XIV never said it. Quite the opposite, on his death bed his last words to his courtiers (reported by Dangeau, one of his close courtiers) was: "Je m'en vais, mais l'Etat demeurera toujours." (i.e. "I am leaving, but the State shall always remain.").

Dangeau reported that the king made a last speech to the people gathered around his deathbed, saying that he was leaving them with great regret, and that they should serve the new king well, because he was only a 5 y/o child, and he could face lots of troubles, such as Louis XIV had faced in his young age. He then told them he was leaving, but the State would always remain, and they should be faithfully attached to the State, and be an example to all the subjects of the kingdom, and be all united and in agreement with each other, because union is the strength of a State, and they should do their duties well, and hopefully they would remember him sometimes. At the end of this little speech, Dangeau says all the assembled people started weeping, and when the king saw in a mirror two of his servants weeping at the feet of his bed he told them: "Why do you cry? Have you thought I was immortal? As for me, I have never believed I was, and you must be prepared to lose me."

So, quite far from "L'Etat c'est moi"! But the caricature propagated by his English foes has unfortunately stuck.

Thanks for the history lesson. But I didn't say who said it. Nor do I care. It was the sentiment that mattered.

[New Brisavoine]

I know, but it's always good to debunk that old quote. The English media still make an enormous use of it (not a year without them using it in articles about France). This quote and the portrait of Napoleon on a rearing horse crossing the Alps are the two biggest clichés about France in the English media, to this day.

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by New Brisavoine

I know, but day.

Not every fucking thing in this thread is about you and your fucking opinions.

[le calmar]

I’m reading a lot of comments in the social media where Quebec separatists stand with anglo Canadians. Never seen anything like it.

[dreambrother808]

Originally Posted by le calmar

I’m reading a lot of comments in the social media where Quebec separatists stand with anglo Canadians. Never seen anything like it.

Yeah, crazy times. It’s the silver lining I guess.

[harls]

Originally Posted by Acajack

Though it is totally possible for geographical features to have different names in the countries bordering them.

What the Americans call the Rio Grande is called the Rio Bravo del Norte by Mexicans.

Can't believe you didn't take this opportunity to bring up the Ottawa River.

[ToxiK]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

That phrase about countries having interests presumed a rational order with clear national interests. With Trump we're back to "L'etat. C'est moi."

In the case of Trump, we should write it that way: "Le tas, c'est moi"...

[New Brisavoine]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

Not every fucking thing in this thread is about you and your fucking opinions.

Keep calm and carry on.

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by le calmar

I’m reading a lot of comments in the social media where Quebec separatists stand with anglo Canadians. Never seen anything like it.

I think they finally understand that if the Americans can come for 40 million, they can come for 9 million.

Also, there will be no saving from France. How many French think like New Brisavoine that the US has every right to simply manhandle Canada (including Quebec) because we're next door? It's not just Americans that think might makes right.

[New Brisavoine]

Originally Posted by le calmar

I’m reading a lot of comments in the social media where Quebec separatists stand with anglo Canadians. Never seen anything like it.

Yeah, this is not a period that should favor the separatist cause.

That being said, it could also be a short parenthesis, as the US mid-term elections will be savage for the Trumpistas.

Also, Québec remains Québec. Yesterday I was reading an article in Le Devoir, actually their main editorial, where they were saying that Canada should "break the house" in response to Trump, and in the middle of it there was this little "gem":

And here are traditional allies like Canada and Denmark, friendly countries - seen from Quebec, you either like or you don't like Canada, for all sorts of valid reasons - but [they are] democratic, prosperous and peaceful states, traditionally loyal, even docile allies, which overnight become the enemy or the adversary to be intimidated.

https://www.ledevoir.com/opinion/chroniques/838516/chronique-casser-baraque?

[New Brisavoine]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

How many French think like New Brisavoine that the US has every right to simply manhandle Canada (including Quebec) because we're next door?

Uh, I don't think that, neither have I ever written that. You're simply propagating fake news here, like Trump.

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by New Brisavoine

Uh, I don't think that, neither have I ever written that. You're simply propagating fake news here, like Trump.

You wrote a long screed on how Japan and South Korea should accept Chinese domination. And twice dodged my question on how your same philosophy should apply in North America. We know why.

Feel free to answer here and confirm it.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by harls

Can't believe you didn't take this opportunity to bring up the Ottawa River.

Interesting point. Though in this case it’s not really a totally different name. It’s the historic English (Ottawa) and French (Outaouais) transliteration of the exact same Indigenous word that is something like Addaweh or Ataweh. Based on the logical sound and pronunciation of English and French, respectively.

Like Brazil and Brésil for Brasil.

[New Brisavoine]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

You wrote a long screed on how Japan and South Korea should accept Chinese domination. And twice dodged my question on how your same philosophy should apply in North America. We know why.

Feel free to answer here and confirm it.

You read too fast, or don't understand what's written.

China only wants to dominate East Asia the way the US dominated North America until 2 weeks ago. I.e. neighboring countries in its sphere of influence (military, economy, culture), but otherwise free to live their own lives as long as they don't threaten the interests of the hegemon. For example the US would never have accepted Chinese bases in Mexico, not even under Obama.

The ideal situation in Beijing's views would be something like North Korea: an independent country that has its own policies (oftentimes not to the liking of Beijing), but who is otherwise aligned with Beijing in international matters and economically dependent on China, and is not a threat to China, and would not harbor foreign bases targeting China. China could invade and annex North Korea anytime if they wanted to, but they don't want to. They prefer to have it as an independent buffer state closely aligned with China.

That's basically what Canada and Mexico were to the US until the recent confrontation.

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by New Brisavoine

You read too fast, or don't understand what's written.

China only wants to dominate East Asia the way the US dominated North America until 2 weeks ago. I.e. neighboring countries in its sphere of influence (military, economy, culture), but otherwise free to live their own lives as long as they don't threaten the interests of the hegemon. For example the US would never have accepted Chinese bases in Mexico, not even under Obama.

The ideal situation in Beijing's views would be something like North Korea: an independent country that has its own policies (oftentimes not to the liking of Beijing), but who is otherwise aligned with Beijing in international matters and economically dependent on China, and is not a threat to China, and would not harbor foreign bases targeting China. China could invade and annex North Korea anytime if they wanted to, but they don't want to. They prefer to have it as an independent buffer state closely aligned with China.

That's basically what Canada and Mexico were to the US until the recent confrontation.

That's a lot of words to keep dodging the question.

[New Brisavoine]

Originally Posted by Acajack

Interesting point. Though in this case it’s not really a totally different name. It’s the historic English (Ottawa) and French (Outaouais) transliteration of the exact same Indigenous word that is something like Addaweh or Ataweh. Based on the logical sound and pronunciation of English and French, respectively.

Like Brazil and Brésil for Brasil.

Well, the English did exactly what Trump is doing when they renamed Acadia as "Nova Scotia".