The Official Saint John, NB Project Thread

[EnvisionSaintJohn]

Originally Posted by DyAm00394

No, I recall the representative with the company that spoke at the public hearing said no new long-term jobs created with this mill project. Maybe zero to maybe 1 additional employee he said. Majority of the jobs and the need for this additional parking is during the short-term construction. (Contractors, construction crew, etc). He said keeping the new parking lot at the park after the project would be ideal/helpful for future shutdowns and such. Currently during those times, they shuttle employees on buses they rent out he said.

The project's website said this about the 600 jobs: "Lead to an increase of 600 jobs supported in the forest supply chain and from induced effects". Don't think that means all those jobs at the mill, just in the supply chain in general.

Some takeaways I got was 600 new jobs in the supply chain

Thanks, I had to look back in the thread to find it, I just remembered the 600 new jobs figure off the top of my head, I see now “in the supply chain” was stipulated (quoted above). Surprising so few or even zero of those 600 new jobs would be at the mill, though!

As for the bolded, keeping a 500 car parking lot on hand for future shutdowns and such doesn’t exactly sound a “suitable economic development opportunity” as was stipulated in the contract for the sale of the property, especially not for such a large piece of prime real estate at a prominent location on the West Side. The only suitable economic development opportunity for that property should be a residential or mixed used development that will actually benefit or be useful to the people of the surrounding neighbourhood.

The city should either let them use it as a temporary parking lot without granting a permanent rezoning, or simply tell them to continue using shuttle busses. Continuing to use shuttle busses is probably the preferable option, considering how much a 500 car parking lot will impact parking at one of the city’s most infamous intersections. Better yet, the city could grant them rezoning to residential (preferably mid rise or high rise) and let them use it as a temporary parking lot. Then the decision would be up to JDI to either build a residential development or sell it to a developer after an agreed upon time limit for the temporary parking lot use..

Its would be an egregious urban planning failure to let such a large piece of prime real estate at a prominent location be rezoned as commercial just to give JDI a permanent spare parking lot, or down the line, make it easier for them to put some other sort of commercial venture in the middle of a mixed residential area.

Plan SJ and Zone SJ should mean something right? This proposal would pretty fragrantly violate what the planners have mapped out for that area. There no fundamental issue with them using shuttle busses to facilitate workers arriving at the site to work on the expansion… I hope the city council grows a backbone and votes accordingly.

[EnvisionSaintJohn]

A welcome addition to the Port.

[DyAm00394]

Councillor Barry Ogden has shared online, a new rendering for the proposed 6-storey building at Agar Place. (Planned development by Michael Wowchuk of Hospital Hill Development). The councillor has mentioned next to go up after this is a 12-storey with a dome on top, paying tribute to the old General Hospital.

[EnvisionSaintJohn]

Originally Posted by DyAm00394

Councillor Barry Odgen has shared online, a new rendering for the proposed 6-storey building at Agar Place. (Planned development by Michael Wowchuk of Hospital Hill Developments).

Not even 10 storeys? Wow. It looks nice enough, but it sure won’t be like the old General.





Nonetheless, it would still be a huge improvement over what is there now. Maybe one day that ugly government building can be removed and something that would really be an ode to the old General Hospital could be built.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_tallest_hospitals

It would be really cool if we could emulate something like the Hospital For Special Surgery in New York, which operates on 14 floors of a mixed residential skyscraper. Obviously Saint John wouldn’t be getting 14 floors in a skyscraper for a hospital, but maybe a hospital for specialized surgeries could work in Saint John on a smaller scale. A brand new specialized hospital could attract the specialists we desperately need in our healthcare system. Similar type projects could work well for Moncton and Fredericton too. 🏥🌆

Edit: great to hear it will be followed up by a 12 storey building paying homage to the old general. A little taller would have been nice, but 12 storeys will be quite prominent at that location. Also, for a 6 storey apartment box, it looks pretty good!

[DyAm00394]

Originally Posted by EnvisionSaintJohn

Not even 10 storeys? Wow. It looks nice enough, but it sure won’t be like the old General.

Nonetheless, this is a huge improvement over what is there now.

A 12-storey building with a dome on top, (paying tribute to the former General Hospital building), is planned after this one. I've updated my post to include that info, but it was after you posted your reply lol.

[jonny golden]

Not even 10 storeys?

As a Moncton area resident who is pulling for Saint John, I agree with this.

[EnvisionSaintJohn]

Originally Posted by DyAm00394

A 12-storey building with a dome on top, (paying tribute to the former General Hospital building), is planned after this one. I've updated my post to include that info, but it was after you posted your reply lol.

Wow, that’s really great news! 📰

Awesome 👏

[bridgeoftea]

I'd love to see a render of where both the 6 and 12 storey building will be on that plot of land. I know someone had the render generated with the Fundy Quay / King Street buildings.

[EnvisionSaintJohn]

Originally Posted by jonny golden

As a Moncton area resident who is pulling for Saint John, I agree with this.

We really need to try and attract developers from outside of New Brunswick. You guys have been putting up high rises left and right, and proposing even bigger ones, while Saint John is just starting Fundy Quay’s high rises and 99 King was in development stasis for a long time. Great to hear about the hospital hill project… but we need to do a lot more than that. Including dealing with heritage conservationists, nimbys, and Uptown landlords that don’t want to see too many high rises go up Uptown due to the laws of supply and demand.

We can build a 21st century skyline in Saint John that preserves our heritage, but also capitalizes on some of the nicest ocean views and oldest city scapes to be seen in Canada. Yet, our city like actually thinks, “Small City, Big Heart” is a good slogan for growth and attracting development 😅

Saint John is a great city, but the only people who seem to think big when it comes to Saint John are Irving and the Port of Saint John. Hopefully the Holt government will deliver some ambitious funding for larger desirable high rise public housing like they have in Austria. The government could transform the southern end of the central peninsula in a really positive way by funding the construction of a building a few high rise developments and really make a dent in the Uptown Saint John housing market, while also being a catalytic project to attract more development in the South End of Saint John. Two birds with one stone.

Higgs sure as hell would have never given such ideas a second thought, but maybe Susan Holt could be convinced. NB housing has built high rises before, but not Uptown.

[DyAm00394]

Originally Posted by bridgeoftea

I'd love to see a render of where both the 6 and 12 storey building will be on that plot of land. I know someone had the render generated with the Fundy Quay / King Street buildings.

This was the original site plan back in January 2024, back when both buildings were to be 6-stories. Now one of them is 12-stories, so I would think same placement, just one is taller.

[KnoxfordGuy]

Saint John has only just turned the corner to positive growth population wise and economically in the last 7 or 8 years. Gotta give it time to attract development.

[DyAm00394]

Originally Posted by DyAm00394

Councillor Barry Ogden has shared online, a new rendering for the proposed 6-storey building at Agar Place. (Planned development by Michael Wowchuk of Hospital Hill Development). The councillor has mentioned next to go up after this is a 12-storey with a dome on top, paying tribute to the old General Hospital.

The developer posted this additional rendering in the comments section over on Retail Talk & Share NB. A view of it from a distance.

[EnvisionSaintJohn]

Originally Posted by KnoxfordGuy

Saint John has only just turned the corner to positive growth population wise and economically in the last 7 or 8 years. Gotta give it time to attract development.

In the middle of a housing crisis? Sorry, but I think we should be a lot more proactive than just “giving it time”, as there’s lots that the city, the province, the feds, and other relevant actors can be doing in the mean time to try and spur on more ambitious residential developments and attract developers to come build mid rises and high rises here in Canada’s first incorporated city and second largest seaport.

The city has a lot going for it economically and geographically, but we haven’t seen single a high rise residential development go up here since the 1980’s, iirc. Moncton’s even got two 15 storey high rises in their development pipeline now for way out by Magnetic Hill, nowhere near their city centre, while Saint John’s struggling to get similar projects built or even proposed for our city’s core and core adjacent areas where these types of high rise projects typically make the most sense.

The city and region’s strategy to attract said development clearly isn’t as effective as it could be, and I think it’s clear that they need to come up with a new approach and be more proactive about marketing Saint John to larger scale developers, as well as being more proactive in lobbying the province to invest in high rise developments here in Saint John. NB housing has invested in high rise developments before in Saint John, but not in the city’s core, where such projects would make the most sense.

I just don’t accept that we should simply wait for things to happen, when there’s lots we can do better to to try and get things done quicker, better combat NIMBYism, aversion to tall buildings, and above all else, start thinking bigger and more ambitiously.

[cdnguys]

Originally Posted by EnvisionSaintJohn

In the middle of a housing crisis? Sorry, but I think we should be a lot more proactive than just “giving it time”, as there’s lots that the city, the province, the feds, and other relevant actors can be doing in the mean time to try and spur on more ambitious residential developments and attract developers to come build mid rises and high rises here in Canada’s first incorporated city and second largest seaport.

The city has a lot going for it economically and geographically, but we haven’t seen single a high rise residential development go up here since the 1980’s, iirc. Moncton’s even got two 15 storey high rises in their development pipeline now for way out by Magnetic Hill, nowhere near their city centre, while Saint John’s struggling to get similar projects built or even proposed for our city’s core and core adjacent areas where these types of high rise projects typically make the most sense.

The city and region’s strategy to attract said development clearly isn’t as effective as it could be, and I think it’s clear that they need to come up with a new approach and be more proactive about marketing Saint John to larger scale developers, as well as being more proactive in lobbying the province to invest in high rise developments here in Saint John. NB housing has invested in high rise developments before in Saint John, but not in the city’s core, where such projects would make the most sense.

I just don’t accept that we should simply wait for things to happen, when there’s lots we can do better to to try and get things done quicker, better combat NIMBYism, aversion to tall buildings, and above all else, start thinking bigger and more ambitiously.

SJ has a 14 story starting in the near future at East Point

[bridgeoftea]

Originally Posted by cdnguys

SJ has a 14 story starting in the near future at East Point

Do we have any confirmation of that? I remember seeing the original plan for East Point that had a few residential blocks between the indigo and the taste of Egypt plots of land.
The only thing I could find was from 2021 -> https://www.country94.ca/2021/10/19/changes-proposed-for-east-point-residential-development/#

[OliverD]

Originally Posted by cdnguys

SJ has a 14 story starting in the near future at East Point

But does it have panoramic ocean views?

[OliverD]

Originally Posted by DyAm00394

The developer posted this additional rendering in the comments section over on Retail Talk & Share NB. A view of it from a distance.

This is at least an interesting building. Depending on materials it could be quite striking. Interesting that only the penthouse units appear to have balconies.

[KnoxfordGuy]

Originally Posted by OliverD

But does it have panoramic ocean views?

Lol

[adamuptownsj]

Originally Posted by DyAm00394

This was the original site plan back in January 2024, back when both buildings were to be 6-stories. Now one of them is 12-stories, so I would think same placement, just one is taller.

Building the first (eastern) one directly into the hillside is a bold move. Sounds challenging. Maybe a taller structure would be too geotechnically challenging for this space.

Destroying the General Hospital was an equal architectural loss to Union Station or the Customs House, except it happened when we should have known much better.

There absolutely must be ample office space to move Service Canada out of that awful box elsewhere on the peninsula. Too bad they just (IIRC) renewed their lease with the new owner. Same with 20 Alma. Per that image, I had no idea the southeast portion of that property was a different PID. What's the elevation difference between Alma and Delhi anyway? 2.5/3 storeys? That hillside could be built into with (Dehli-side) ground- and 2nd-storey parking without messing up a viable streetscape, but would probably work best if the three PIDs towards Waterloo were part of the project too.

Odd to see vitriol directed at Saint John for not magicking skyscrapers into existence and blaming 'NIMBYs'. I don't think there's been any proposed for 'NIMBYs' to attack. The only public NIMBYism has been pretty typical opposition to dropping 3/4-storey apartment buildings in single family neighbourhoods, and PAC has basically ignored it. It's not Charlottetown, there's no IRAC, and PAC is not stopping anything. There's enough to complain about in this city without windmill tilting.

Same with heritage conservationists. What exactly has the Heritage Board stalled or prevented from being built? Saint John would be better off today if a board existed and interfered with Brunswick Square (forced them to keep the King St facades like Market Square did) and maybe stopped King Square North turning into a parking lot.

I recently saw a letter to council (in last week's agenda, or maybe the previous week) that proposed eliminating the two-staircase requirement for six-storey buildings. The amount of space and variety of designs this would open up, especially on atypically shaped or small lots, is incredible. Some great examples here: https://secondegress.ca/Manual-of-Illegal-Floor-Plans

You want dense infill, start with things like this. Elevator plus two staircases means you get locked into very, very limited designs.

[sailor734]

Confused about the 2 staircase thing. Isn't that a fire safety issue?

Would the single stair buildings in your link (looks like mostly Europe) have other fire safety features that are not required here?

edit....read the document and answered my own question. The proposal would seem to make sense based on the other changes to fire proofing/fire safety requirements
Interesting to read of balcony sprinkles and how balconies can be a path for fire to spread in wood frame buildings.