Macy's closing 4 Downtown stores across US

[craigs]

Originally Posted by Steely Dan

This is all extremely disappointing to read.

Union Square was once one of the absolute alphas of US downtown retail.

I guess nothing lasts forever.

Is there any possible way to get it back, or is it gone for good?

It seems unimaginable that Union Square is gone for good, but then, even 5 years ago I wouldn't have believed all these stores would close in the first place.

Originally Posted by sopas ej

Myself as a regular visitor to San Francisco, I don't even remember the last time I was at Union Square... 5 or 6 years ago, maybe? If not more? Back when Borders existed, I liked the Borders at Union Square, being that we like to go to bookstores; City Lights is always a must when we go to SF.

There are other more interesting places in SF to stroll about than Union Square. It'll obviously have to reinvent itself somehow.

San Francisco's neighborhoods have constantly been evolving; Union Square is no different. Polk Street used to have a lot of gay bars; it was SF's original gay ghetto before the Castro, after all. Polk Street now is not what it used to be like in the late 1980s and early 1990s.

When I left SF in 2020, Polk had transitioned to cater more to rich young (mostly straight) people. I didn't go there when I was in the city during the holidays, but I doubt there are any gay bars left.

[Quixote]

Originally Posted by sopas ej

I think this is what happens when "downtowns" only consist of retail corporate chains, which is what the US is all about, right? In Europe, and Asia for that matter, I think the concept of a "downtown" is different; it's more of a "city center" in the true sense of the term; people live there as well, and they have cultural institutions that just don't involve shopping at retail chains. There are religious institutions, public markets that you can't alternately access through the internet, like fish stalls, butchers, vegetable stalls, etc., public squares, a culture that encourages congregating in public spaces just to congregate and relax, cafes that don't kick you out, etc.

To activate an American downtown, I think you really need to have more residents there. Create an actual neighborhood. Because let's face it, retail and office has changed and evolved.

This. The problem with North American urban cores is a lack of storefront density that allows for local, neighborhood-serving businesses to exist and sustain themselves. Two specific typologies — the office skyscraper and the rowhouse — generally don't foster the type of walkability that make these livable amenities viable on a large scale.

[craigs]

Originally Posted by Quixote

This. The problem with North American urban cores is a lack of storefront density that allows for local, neighborhood-serving businesses to exist and sustain themselves. Two specific typologies — the office skyscraper and the rowhouse — generally don't foster the type of walkability that make these livable amenities viable on a large scale.

The typology of Union Square hasn't changed since its century-long heyday, which ended maybe five years ago. It was throughout modern history the commercial heart of the city, with everything from tourist hotels to restaurants and bars to department stores and specialty boutiques. The residential component has actually increased in recent decades, too. I don't know, but I suspect the retail apocalypse is tied closely to an economy that was built on foreign tourists spending inordinate amounts of money in the department stores and boutiques. COVID and global politics shifted the paradigm--people still visit SF, but the well-heeled Chinese tourists have not returned in the same numbers.

That said, SF's neighborhood high streets have a shit-ton of small storefront density and low vacancies relative to Union Square.

[Steely Dan]

Originally Posted by sopas ej

To activate an American downtown, I think you really need to have more residents there. Create an actual neighborhood. Because let's face it, retail and office has changed and evolved.

The loop and near north side community areas of Chicago (the heart of "downtown") are 2 of the 5 most densely populated community areas in the entire city, with a combined 150,000 people on a little over 4 sq. miles of land.

Even more residents would obviously be even better, but I think the struggles of downtown department store retail in US cities go WAY beyond downtown residents. After all, back in the heydey of chicago's State Street retail district, anchored by the gargantuan old Marshall Fields store (now a struggling Macy's ), the loop barely had any residents at all.

[mrnyc]

you have to adapt. cleveland had a premiere downtown shopping scene too for many decades: At their peak, Cleveland's department stores (May, Higbee's, Bailey's, Taylor's, Halle, and SLD or the big six) were one of the largest shopping districts in the United States. By the end of the 1990s, none of the "big six" Cleveland department stores was still in operation.

today for example, sterling-linder-davis building houses bluebridge, an IT company, the may company was coverted into apartments and the higbees a casino.

sf will figure it out.

[LosAngelesSportsFan]

Originally Posted by craigs

The typology of Union Square hasn't changed since its century-long heyday, which ended maybe five years ago. It was throughout modern history the commercial heart of the city, with everything from tourist hotels to restaurants and bars to department stores and specialty boutiques. The residential component has actually increased in recent decades, too. I don't know, but I suspect the retail apocalypse is tied closely to an economy that was built on foreign tourists spending inordinate amounts of money in the department stores and boutiques. COVID and global politics shifted the paradigm--people still visit SF, but the well-heeled Chinese tourists have not returned in the same numbers.

That said, SF's neighborhood high streets have a shit-ton of small storefront density and low vacancies relative to Union Square.

I think you nailed it here

[Crawford]

Yeah, it's probable the Chinese tourist thing plays a major role.

Maybe 7-8 years ago, pre-pandemic, pre-HK crackdown, and when the West and China had better relations, there were massive numbers of wealthy Chinese buying in Western gateway cities. I remember the crazy lines in Paris, NYC and the like. They would close down stores for Chinese tour groups, who would exit loaded up with gaudy luxury goods.

I remember seeing this on the West Coast, as well. South Coast Plaza had these groups. I imagine Union Square had the same. In places like Paris and NYC, the loss, while it hurts, isn't a huge deal, they get oodles of tourists from elsewhere, but I bet it really shook SF.

[iheartthed]

I don't think there is anything unusual about SF's Union Square from an urban development pattern standpoint. Nearly every thriving city in the world that I've ever been to has had a district like Union Sq that's dominated by a combination tourists and commuters, with amenities catering to them. Union Square does still have a large concentration of hotel rooms, so it's hard to imagine that it will be completely discarded unless tourism never AND office workers never come back.

I stayed at a hotel near Union Square couple of summers ago for a wedding, right before the Nordstroms in Westfield Center closed. Things in the area seemed fairly clean and orderly to me but there was a very noticeable lack of foot traffic in the area. It felt like a holiday weekend, even though it wasn't. There were also LOT of empty storefronts. I went to Westfield Center to buy something and it was mostly empty but also had a security presence similar to what you would see in malls in Brazil. That was pretty off putting, but I didn't witness any overly aggressive vagrants or other illegal activity the entire time I was there.

[SIGSEGV]

Originally Posted by Crawford

Yeah, it's probable the Chinese tourist thing plays a major role.

Maybe 7-8 years ago, pre-pandemic, pre-HK crackdown, and when the West and China had better relations, there were massive numbers of wealthy Chinese buying in Western gateway cities. I remember the crazy lines in Paris, NYC and the like. They would close down stores for Chinese tour groups, who would exit loaded up with gaudy luxury goods.

I remember seeing this on the West Coast, as well. South Coast Plaza had these groups. I imagine Union Square had the same. In places like Paris and NYC, the loss, while it hurts, isn't a huge deal, they get oodles of tourists from elsewhere, but I bet it really shook SF.

I wonder if they still have the Chinese tour groups visiting Stanford"s campus. It was sudre having class outdoors and having a tour bus pull up and take pictures of us in undergrad

[mrnyc]

Originally Posted by SIGSEGV

I wonder if they still have the Chinese tour groups visiting Stanford"s campus. It was sudre having class outdoors and having a tour bus pull up and take pictures of us in undergrad

i would hope so. if that dries up along with trade which will dry up due to trump tariffs, and as chinese investments are bought up, that will give each country no ties with each other. which will lead directly to misunderstandings and war because all interaction was cut off. this is in part why trade wars are foolishness.

outside of all that, you wonder where big legacy shopping institutions are going to be in five years. i would guess many more closures are on the horizon. and bezos will morph into baron harkonnen.

[Busy Bee]

I'm not really an AF guy, but this is depressing AF.

[mrnyc]

Originally Posted by Busy Bee

I'm not really an AF guy, but this is depressing AF.

glad to hear that, but actually AF is making a comeback these days, who would have guessed?


The comeback of Abercrombie & Fitch

https://www.cnbc.com/video/2024/06/13/the-comeback-of-abercrombie-fitch.html

[Busy Bee]

jeez

[38 Geary]

Now we just need PacSun, Aéropostale, and Anchor Blue to make their comebacks.

[JManc]

Chess King too.

[craigs]

Contempo!

[sopas ej]

Jay Jacobs and GHQ!

[Busy Bee]

Chess King LOL

That's a serious age outing.

My teen mall fashion house was Gadzooks.

[sopas ej]

Originally Posted by Busy Bee

My teen mall fashion house was Gadzooks.

Never heard of it, where was it located?

[Busy Bee]

It was a mall brand nationwide. They pulled the plug on it in the early 2000s. It was kind of the "punk/alternative" store of the mid to late 90s before Hot Topic showed up to drive a corporate stake through the heart of rock n roll.