Quebec, the French Language, and Quebecois Identity

[1overcosc]

Originally Posted by Acajack

I've never seen "sweet cream" here (maybe it does exist) but bakers here complain that the butter even in Quebec isn't "real butter" and many get their butter imported from France.

I believe there are Canadian regulations applying to its composition that make it way less rich than real butter from France (even if it is labelle "beurre - butter" here, and not "sweet cream".

Canadian butter is much lower in fat. This is primarily the result of the dairy supply management system giving every market actor a guaranteed stable market share which incentivizes them to make the lowest quality product (if you can't grow market share, why bother making a nicer product?).

[kwoldtimer]

Originally Posted by 1overcosc;10353167[B

]Canadian butter is much lower in fat.[/B] This is primarily the result of the dairy supply management system giving every market actor a guaranteed stable market share which incentivizes them to make the lowest quality product (if you can't grow market share, why bother making a nicer product?).

About 2 or 3% lower if fat. Don't know why.

[1overcosc]

Originally Posted by kwoldtimer

About 2 or 3% lower if fat. Don't know why.

It's what I just said - it's the fault of the supply management system for incentivizing the lowest possible quality of product. Milk fat is significantly more valuable than the rest of the milk so a higher fat % is more expensive for producers.

[1overcosc]

Quebec gets the largest benefit from the supply management system (the most producers per capita) but also has probably the largest population of foodies who are annoyed with the resulting low product quality, so it's all a wash from the POV of regional grievances.

[hipster duck]

Originally Posted by niwell

The No Frills supermarket near me actually has a butcher and fish counter in addition to pre-packaged sections. Both are operated by separate companies within the store space. Interesting because it's a discount chain with wildly varying quality of stores - this one is jokingly referred to as "Some Frills" due to a pretty impressive array of goods.

This is in addition to a number of butcher shops and a good fishmonger nearby.

You must be talking about the No Frills at College and Lansdowne! I agree, No Frills really varies, and it has more to do with the size of the store than the socioeconomics of the surrounding neighbourhood. There are some No Frills in very rich parts of the city that have very threadbare offerings.

Comparing what kind of fish you can buy in France versus anywhere in North America - whether it's Quebec, English Canada or the US - is kind of an unfair comparison. The European-side of the Atlantic, plus the Mediterranean (which is an entirely different ecosystem just a few hundred kilometers away) just brims with different varieties of fish and most cultures have adapted to cooking them. It's not just a France thing. If you go to a UK grocery store, you also have so many different types of fish sitting on the ice and all of my cookbooks written by UK authors are full of pages of different fish that we can't get over here.

I don't know what it's like in Atlantic Canada, but on the Pacific coast, the variety of fish caught is relatively unexciting by comparison. I used to belong to a "Fishermen's CSA" in Vancouver when I lived there (where the independent fishermen deliver a box of stuff they caught directly to your house), and my wife and I discontinued it after a year not because we didn't want to support the fishery industry, but because we were tired of getting the same stuff every time.

If you want fresh fish like what you see in those French grocery store pictures, you can definitely get it, but you'll pay through the nose because a lot of it has to be shipped by air.

[1overcosc]

Originally Posted by hipster duck

You must be talking about the No Frills at College and Lansdowne! I agree, No Frills really varies, and it has more to do with the size of the store than the socioeconomics of the surrounding neighbourhood. There are some No Frills in very rich parts of the city that have very threadbare offerings.

Comparing what kind of fish you can buy in France versus anywhere in North America - whether it's Quebec, English Canada or the US - is kind of an unfair comparison. The European-side of the Atlantic, plus the Mediterranean (which is an entirely different ecosystem just a few hundred kilometers away) just brims with different varieties of fish and most cultures have adapted to cooking them. It's not just a France thing. If you go to a UK grocery store, you also have so many different types of fish sitting on the ice and all of my cookbooks written by UK authors are full of pages of different fish that we can't get over here.

I don't know what it's like in Atlantic Canada, but on the Pacific coast, the variety of fish caught is relatively unexciting by comparison. I used to belong to a "Fishermen's CSA" in Vancouver when I lived there (where the independent fishermen deliver a box of stuff they caught directly to your house), and my wife and I discontinued it after a year not because we didn't want to support the fishery industry, but because we were tired of getting the same stuff every time.

If you want fresh fish like what you see in those French grocery store pictures, you can definitely get it, but you'll pay through the nose because a lot of it has to be shipped by air.

I've always thought Ontario could have a much bigger freshwater fish industry. Aside from just the Great Lakes, Eastern & Northern Ontario are full of huge river systems. Freshwater fish was a staple part of the diet of the Anishinaabe people back in the day.

[Tvisforme]

Originally Posted by kwoldtimer

About 2 or 3% lower if fat. Don't know why.

Canadian butter is (by law) 80% fat, while European butter has to be at between at least 82% to 85%.

[niwell]

Originally Posted by hipster duck

You must be talking about the No Frills at College and Lansdowne! I agree, No Frills really varies, and it has more to do with the size of the store than the socioeconomics of the surrounding neighbourhood. There are some No Frills in very rich parts of the city that have very threadbare offerings.

Haha yep! Size is the big one but type of offerings in various No Frills can vary a lot too - I suspect it's something to do with the ownership model. Bigger ones will absolutely cater towards what's desirable in the immediate area.



RE: Freshwater fish - I've definitely seen it offered on the menu at local restaurants more often. Had pickerel fairly recently as well as cured rainbow trout. The local fishmonger has Ontario fish when in season as well. Agreed that it's something I'd like to see offered more, as it's hard to find at standard grocers. Though IIRC I have seen Pickerel at the aforementioned No Frills.

[hipster duck]

Originally Posted by 1overcosc

I've always thought Ontario could have a much bigger freshwater fish industry. Aside from just the Great Lakes, Eastern & Northern Ontario are full of huge river systems. Freshwater fish was a staple part of the diet of the Anishinaabe people back in the day.

It's improving. I've noticed more and more stores stock Lake Erie pickerel in the summer months, at least in Toronto. If you go to Port Dover or Port Stanley, you can see that there is a commercial fishing industry that flies a bit under the radar, and that give those towns somewhat of a Maritime feel.

But we're limited by the size of the lakes, which lakes generate a lot of fish (I think that Lake Erie generates the lion's share of the commercial catch, despite being the smallest of the Great Lakes by volume), and of course by seasonality - lakes freeze over while oceans don't.

[New Brisavoine]

Originally Posted by hipster duck

It's not just a France thing. If you go to a UK grocery store, you also have so many different types of fish sitting on the ice and all of my cookbooks written by UK authors are full of pages of different fish that we can't get over here.

Not true in London. I lived there and the supermarkets in the two different areas of London where I lived didn't have any fish stand (only small prepacked fish sections on shelves). Also, there are no fishmongers (independent stores) in London, they are all long gone (they must all have closed in the 1960s), whereas in Paris you still see lots of fishmongers in the streets (but they are expensive).

Typical fishmonger in Paris (I never saw any in London, don't say there aren't any at all if you look well, but in 2 years of living there I never saw any):



I was always shocked how such an island country like the UK could have so little fish on sale. In fact stats show the Brits consume far less fish than the French, and most of the fish their fishermen catch is exported to the continent. Go figure! (this was actually one of the stupidities of Brexit, they fought to have French fishermen not fishing in their British waters, but most of their fish is exported to France, so France could block their exports if they didn't allow French fishermen to catch fish in British waters, so Boris Johnson eventually caved in)

[YOWetal]

Originally Posted by 1overcosc

It's what I just said - it's the fault of the supply management system for incentivizing the lowest possible quality of product. Milk fat is significantly more valuable than the rest of the milk so a higher fat % is more expensive for producers.

I think it's only partially a result of Supply Management. The regulator could make whatever they want the minimum but we are aligned with the US where it is set at 80%. In the US they do have European butter available whereas perhaps supply management makes the incentive to provide a niche product less profitable. We still have lots of great cheeses so if the demand was there for slightly better $15 butter I guess they could make it. But yes without supply management we would import French butter that people would happily pay a premium for both for fat content and cache. And probably NZ 82 % butter which would be cheaper than ours.

[New Brisavoine]

Originally Posted by 1overcosc

I've always thought Ontario could have a much bigger freshwater fish industry. Aside from just the Great Lakes, Eastern & Northern Ontario are full of huge river systems. Freshwater fish was a staple part of the diet of the Anishinaabe people back in the day.

Pollution my dear, pollution, even in Canada. I would never consume fish from Lake Ontario for instance.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by YOWetal

I think it's only partially a result of Supply Management. The regulator could make whatever they want the minimum but we are aligned with the US where it is set at 80%. In the US they do have European butter available whereas perhaps supply management makes the incentive to provide a niche product less profitable. We still have lots of great cheeses so if the demand was there for slightly better $15 butter I guess they could make it. But yes without supply management we would import French butter that people would happily pay a premium for both for fat content and cache. And probably NZ 82 % butter which would be cheaper than ours.

As I mentioned already many bakeries and pastry shops in Montreal and other parts of Quebec import butter from France every day, so it's not illegal to do so.

Of course it comes at a price, but it's a choice they make.

[Acajack]

As a francophone, even after speaking English for over 50 years the word "fishmonger" still makes me smile.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by New Brisavoine

Not true in London. I lived there and the supermarkets in the two different areas of London where I lived didn't have any fish stand (only small prepacked fish sections on shelves). Also, there are no fishmongers (independent stores) in London, they are all long gone (they must all have closed in the 1960s), whereas in Paris you still see lots of fishmongers in the streets (but they are expensive).

Typical fishmonger in Paris (I never saw any in London, don't say there aren't any at all if you look well, but in 2 years of living there I never saw any):



I was always shocked how such an island country like the UK could have so little fish on sale. In fact stats show the Brits consume far less fish than the French, and most of the fish their fishermen catch is exported to the continent. Go figure! (this was actually one of the stupidities of Brexit, they fought to have French fishermen not fishing in their British waters, but most of their fish is exported to France, so France could block their exports if they didn't allow French fishermen to catch fish in British waters, so Boris Johnson eventually caved in)

In terms of food from the sea being generalized amongst the people, apart from fish n chips the UK has never seemed to be a big seafood country. Certainly not compared to France, Spain and Portugal where it's a big part of the regular diet and of the national cuisine.

[Nashe]

Originally Posted by New Brisavoine

Pollution my dear, pollution, even in Canada. I would never consume fish from Lake Ontario for instance.

There are more freshwater lakes in Canada than anywhere in the world. That said, it's not easy to get to most of them.

[YOWetal]

Originally Posted by Acajack

As I mentioned already many bakeries and pastry shops in Montreal and other parts of Quebec import butter from France every day, so it's not illegal to do so.

Of course it comes at a price, but it's a choice they make.

I think there is a quota within CETA so the 200%+ tariff doesn't apply. I'm told it's pretty critical to a lot of these products. We used to use lard and shortening outside Quebec in a lot of those products. (Do they even still sell shortening in Canada?)

[niwell]

I've found 84% butter at local specialty grocers. Both imported and what appears to be local. It's not cheap though! Usually not worth it for the cooking styles I normally do, but I have gotten it before.

[New Brisavoine]

Usually I buy this butter. It's very good, more expensive than other butters, but still dirt cheap as butter is in France. No idea how much fat content there is, as it's not something we even look for here. I didn't even know there could be butters with different fat contents. Butter is just butter as far as we're concerned here.



Anyway, I try to buy less and less butter, as it's not so good for your waist (and also general health, although it seems the science is less clear cut on that now). I mostly consume (high quality) organic olive oil, as well as a mix of 5 different organic oils in a bottle, which is far too expensive, but health has no price.

[1overcosc]

Originally Posted by New Brisavoine

Pollution my dear, pollution, even in Canada. I would never consume fish from Lake Ontario for instance.

Lake Ontario is a lot less polluted than the coasts of Europe are. The oceans (outside of some isolated polar regions) are full of heavy metals. Big freshwater lakes turn over water.

I think y'all in Europe just don't understand the sheer size of the river & lake systems we have in North America. The Ottawa River, one of the smaller rivers on the continent, has enough fresh water to sustainably provide drinking water to 150 million people. Folks who live in Ottawa don't even need water softeners because the water from the river is so pure.