PHILADELPHIA | 76 Place | GENERAL DISCUSSION

[PHL10]

Originally Posted by Skintreesnail

Sometimes i come here to remind myself how far Philadelphia has come:
https://maps.app.goo.gl/BRNa5bEFnT9ApmrbA?g_st=ac

Reality.

[skyhigh07]

Originally Posted by Raja

This is good context. Sometimes it's easy to forget just how much progress there has been. I came to Philadelphia in '07, and recall Market East being grungy but still relatively active then. I suppose what makes it stand it out is that while numerous parts of the city have markedly improved over the past decade, Market East has declined. In fact, it's probably the only pocket of Center City that has declined over that period except perhaps for South Street, but even South Street has improved again the past couple years.

I remember saying the same thing two or three years ago on here when there was a lot of dooming. I used to bring up Dilworth plaza going from basically a homeless encampment to what it is now.

The main difference between now and then was I was saying that with a background of a surge of retail and private development projects coming- even when COVID was beginning to subside. A lot of that has since dried up or stalled which is the reason many of us are now concerned.

[Wynnefieldest]

This let down is so Philly typical...IDK why im even annoyed!! Philly culture is what it is....."Gangs of New York" style 1870's Irish and Italian bat and club union thugs, miserable 70 year old NYC transplants who used Philly to escape the big city and the entrenched blue collar "Paulie from Rocky" [The man is trying to keep me down] NIMBYs and the city counsel members who slither from these ranks!! Literally every youtube comment section is filled with Philadelphian's happy this project fell through!

...and the most ridiculous part is the Chinatown community and BLM holdovers protesting this project!!! WAIT!! ChINATOWN which is literally a glorified ally way which perpetually smells like the Waste Management garbage processing plant of Delaware ave. was upset development was going to ruin their neighborhood? The development was too big a project? No...not the two massive convention centers, and Gallery???? The stadium was the deal breaker?

Philadelphians are literally the most antisocial miserable major city population since its inception!! Thats how we went from a city with more prominence than NYC to surpassed by Phoenix AZ! Every major project to make this city a global powerhouse is nixed!!

We get 1 tower every 50 years.......and most towers are scrapped or scaled down to 1/5 the original size!! Maude the 80 yr old school teacher will flag every project that isnt a 2 floor science lab or methadone clinic.......Schukhill Yards??? Don't make me laugh!!

....and no one can convince me that city planning ensures the construction of every skyscraper is built to hide two others!!
Hudson Yards has literally built more skyscrapers in 10 years than Philly since the 1800's!! Im literally at the point where im fighting Seattlians for the best skyline!! The disrespect is insane!!!

But, the city got exactly what they wanted.....the typical antisocial Philly mentality where out of towners can pull up to the meat packing district right next to Jetro......grab a 6 inch processed cheesesteak and "old bay fries" and then get the hell out of our city!! Nothing makes the typical Philadelphian more happy!! The phrase "get out of my neighborhood" should be inscribed on the 30th street stature and Phila airport baggage claim portal!!

Soory for the trauma dump....50 years of this!!!!!

[Wynnefieldest]

Man...I applaud the hope that all you guys show on this site but the honest truth is this city's constituency is and has been diametrically opposed to any progress that opens this city up to a global population and world!! Our proximity to NYC will always destroy us through filtering!! Jet set forward thinking creatives will always leave here to suffer living in a shoe closet in Queens for $5k a month with 8 roommates than stay here.......meanwhile New Yorkers attempting to escape the grandness and liveliness of NYC will always run here and then black any development that in any way resembles what NYC stands for!!

[Wynnefieldest]

Yeah, unfortunately you forgot the the 5th Reich aka as the Phila parking authority?
I travel 45 min in rush our traffic to shop at KOP rather than the 10 min drive to do anything in Center City!!

[Wynnefieldest]

just remember Philly with its 15 million visitors per week couldn't handle the congestion......I mean even NEW YORK cant handle having a stadium in their midtown corridor!! LOL!!!! "Impossible....outta da question"...in my manhattan accent!!!

[Wynnefieldest]

Development in Philly moves slower than the Xfinity website when trying to check your bill!

[reparcsyks]

Originally Posted by Wynnefieldest

I travel 45 min in rush our traffic to shop at KOP rather than the 10 min drive to do anything in Center City!!

If this comment is true, you are part of the problem. If you don't spend your money in CC, how do you expect CC to get nice things?

There's no problem with shopping at KOP, but then don't rant that CC isn't living up to its potential.

[skyhigh07]

I visited KOP with family from CA for the first time last summer. We were all expecting it to be like South Coast Plaza. It had some nice stores but we weren’t impressed. Seemed somewhat dated and dreary tbh. Not worth the hype and Walnut should be doing a much better job competing with it.

[Frontst17]

There’s been like a dozen high rises built in CC in the last 10 years and probably double if you include U city. If it’s too slow just check out Naked Philly and see the hundreds of infill projects going on around the city

[Justin7]

Originally Posted by Wynnefieldest

This let down is so Philly typical...IDK why im even annoyed!! Philly culture is what it is....."Gangs of New York" style 1870's Irish and Italian bat and club union thugs, miserable 70 year old NYC transplants who used Philly to escape the big city and the entrenched blue collar "Paulie from Rocky" [The man is trying to keep me down] NIMBYs and the city counsel members who slither from these ranks!! Literally every youtube comment section is filled with Philadelphian's happy this project fell through!

...and the most ridiculous part is the Chinatown community and BLM holdovers protesting this project!!! WAIT!! ChINATOWN which is literally a glorified ally way which perpetually smells like the Waste Management garbage processing plant of Delaware ave. was upset development was going to ruin their neighborhood? The development was too big a project? No...not the two massive convention centers, and Gallery???? The stadium was the deal breaker?

Philadelphians are literally the most antisocial miserable major city population since its inception!! Thats how we went from a city with more prominence than NYC to surpassed by Phoenix AZ! Every major project to make this city a global powerhouse is nixed!!

We get 1 tower every 50 years.......and most towers are scrapped or scaled down to 1/5 the original size!! Maude the 80 yr old school teacher will flag every project that isnt a 2 floor science lab or methadone clinic.......Schukhill Yards??? Don't make me laugh!!

....and no one can convince me that city planning ensures the construction of every skyscraper is built to hide two others!!
Hudson Yards has literally built more skyscrapers in 10 years than Philly since the 1800's!! Im literally at the point where im fighting Seattlians for the best skyline!! The disrespect is insane!!!

But, the city got exactly what they wanted.....the typical antisocial Philly mentality where out of towners can pull up to the meat packing district right next to Jetro......grab a 6 inch processed cheesesteak and "old bay fries" and then get the hell out of our city!! Nothing makes the typical Philadelphian more happy!! The phrase "get out of my neighborhood" should be inscribed on the 30th street stature and Phila airport baggage claim portal!!

Soory for the trauma dump....50 years of this!!!!!

Someone please take away this guy's keys.

[PHLtoNYC]

Originally Posted by skyhigh07

I visited KOP with family from CA for the first time last summer. We were all expecting it to be like South Coast Plaza. It had some nice stores but we weren’t impressed. Seemed somewhat dated and dreary tbh. Not worth the hype and Walnut should be doing a much better job competing with it.

KoP has more than "some nice stores", almost every major designer has an outpost there. At the end of the day, it's a mall. And I've been to Tysons, Short Hills, Phipps Plaza, Houston Galleria, South Coast Plaza, Garden State Plaza, Fashion Square Scottsdale, and they offer more or less the same experience (which is subpar to a city district). The standout is Highland Park Village in Dallas, which is a historic outdoor center (similar to Suburban Square, but luxury stores).

But yea, discussed ad nauseum, Walnut is a nice corridor, but operates below its full potential. However, Market Street (and parts of Chestnut East of Broad) need some real help.

[skyhigh07]

Originally Posted by PHLtoNYC

KoP has more than "some nice stores", almost every major designer has an outpost there. At the end of the day, it's a mall. And I've been to Tysons, Short Hills, Phipps Plaza, Houston Galleria, South Coast Plaza, Garden State Plaza, Fashion Square Scottsdale, and they offer more or less the same experience (which is subpar to a city district). The standout is Highland Park Village in Dallas, which is a historic outdoor center (similar to Suburban Square, but luxury stores).

But yea, discussed ad nauseum, Walnut is a nice corridor, but operates below its full potential. However, Market Street (and parts of Chestnut East of Broad) need some real help.

Yeah I suppose. That whole area up there is dreary though. Honestly, I wouldn’t go back. South Coast Plaza is still a grade above it. Not just in terms of the building itself but also designer stores. I used to go there a lot when I grew up in OC. South Coast has Prada, Givenchy, Valentino etc. KOP does not. I’m frankly surprised they have the stores that they have.

[cardeza]

so the change of locale is being blamed on Chinatown and anti development people? Absolutely no blame for the sixers ownership group who lied for months? Wow. Philly powers than be did everything the Sixers asked and you folks are still blaming their supposed Philly culture and resistance to change for what a couple of billionaires decided to do after a meeting during an NFL game. Give me a break.

[PHLtoNYC]

Originally Posted by skyhigh07

Yeah I suppose. That whole area up there is dreary though. Honestly, I wouldn’t go back. South Coast Plaza is still a grade above it. Not just in terms of the building itself but also designer stores. I used to go there a lot when I grew up in OC. South Coast has Prada, Givenchy, Valentino etc. KOP does not. I’m frankly surprised they have the stores that they have.

Yea, South Coast Plaza is probably the nicest mall in the country. Though I still find the overall mall experience the same, KoP is more like Tysons, Phipps Plaza, Garden State Plaza, etc.

Kop used to have a Givenchy, maybe it closed?
Though why are you surprised KoP has the stores it has? The mall has those stores because its plopped near wealthy suburbs with multiple highway nodes. It's not as glamorous as a downtown district, but every major region has a luxury retail center, Philly's happens to be a mall.

And to keep it on topic, high rent also hurts Center City. Simon charges retailers lower rent, and higher sales, less security risk (all about money at the end of the day).

[BroadandMarket]

Originally Posted by cardeza

so the change of locale is being blamed on Chinatown and anti development people? Absolutely no blame for the sixers ownership group who lied for months? Wow. Philly powers than be did everything the Sixers asked and you folks are still blaming their supposed Philly culture and resistance to change for what a couple of billionaires decided to do after a meeting during an NFL game. Give me a break.

I really don't think the 76ers pulled a quick one on us. I think they legitimately wanted to build in Center City considering their only 2 actual official renderings were Penn's Landing and 11th and Market. They put an immense amount of time and money into it with designs, traffic studies, partnerships with Macerich.

I think that once Comcast saw it was going to get approved, they needed to give the Sixers a better deal and then force their hand with their powerful people and money (Brian Roberts, Roger Goodell, Adam Silver, Josh Shapiro). The NBA is coming back to NBC for the first time since 2002 and Peacock/NBC broadcast NFL games. Comcast is very powerful and they got their way. If they just wanted leverage from Comcast Spectacor for a better deal, why wouldn't they release renderings and designs for a Camden arena? Then they wouldn't have had any of the negative press and media circus around Chinatown.

Another scenario is that very recently demolition was approved for RFK stadium in DC. President Biden also signed a bill transferring the building from federal to city control. This is likely so the Josh Harris and the Commanders can start the process of building a new Commanders stadium in DC. There's a chance that once Josh Harris saw he could get a stadium in DC, he wanted to divert his money to that.

It would be very classic for DC to get a nice and transformative project while Philly gets the status quo. If the Commanders get a dome stadium where RFK was, it will host an insane amount of events, the location is incredible for a football stadium.

But also yes in general screw Chinatown. They weren't the reason it didn't happen but their constant backlash against any progress within 10 blocks of their neighborhood is nonsense. They have a sense of entitlement unlike any other neighborhood in Philly. They killed up the Phillies stadium at 11th and Spring Garden, it's still a dump. They killed the casino/hotel at 8th and Market, it's still empty. They tried to kill the convention center, it's a great project IMO. They tried to kill the commuter tunnel/Jefferson Station which is a transformative project. They complained about Patco reopening Franklin Square Station. They want the city to turn over the Roundhouse to PCDC FOR FREE so they can make a social housing project.

[skyhigh07]

Originally Posted by PHLtoNYC

Yea, South Coast Plaza is probably the nicest mall in the country. KoP is more like Tysons, Phipps Plaza, Garden State Plaza, etc.

Kop used to have a Givenchy, maybe it closed? Though why surprised? KoP is what is what it is because its smack in the center of wealthy suburbs with multiple highway nodes (as you know). It's not as glamorous as downtown district, but every major region has a luxury outpost, Philly's happens to be a mall...
I also think if NYC weren't up the road, Center City would have more. In 2025, between KoP and Manhattan, why does CC need that?

Yep, 100%. My family from CA liked Suburban Square. Has a lot more charm and character albeit it’s much smaller, which is a nice aspect in of itself. Much better vibes there than KOP.

And yeah I probably did more than half my shopping in NYC last year.

[Urbanthusiat]

Originally Posted by skyhigh07

And yeah I probably did more than half my shopping in NYC last year.

That’s insane to me. I can’t imagine caring enough about what logo is on my shirt to go two hours away just to do some shopping.

[skyhigh07]

Originally Posted by Urbanthusiat

That’s insane to me. I can’t imagine caring enough about what logo is on my shirt to go two hours away just to do some shopping.

Yes, I get up at 6am every Saturday wearing my big Fendi sunglasses and Uggs, Starbucks in hand and along with my pet chihuahua we take a business class Amtrak to NYC and then hire a private car to take us to Fifth Avenue. I’m totally not up there for work purposes every week and happen to do a bit of shopping now and then. Also the train takes like an hour twenty and can cost as little as ten bucks if you happen to find a good deal.

[Redddog]

Originally Posted by BroadandMarket

I really don't think the 76ers pulled a quick one on us. I think they legitimately wanted to build in Center City considering their only 2 actual official renderings were Penn's Landing and 11th and Market. They put an immense amount of time and money into it with designs, traffic studies, partnerships with Macerich.

I think that once Comcast saw it was going to get approved, they needed to give the Sixers a better deal and then force their hand with their powerful people and money (Brian Roberts, Roger Goodell, Adam Silver, Josh Shapiro). The NBA is coming back to NBC for the first time since 2002 and Peacock/NBC broadcast NFL games. Comcast is very powerful and they got their way. If they just wanted leverage from Comcast Spectacor for a better deal, why wouldn't they release renderings and designs for a Camden arena? Then they wouldn't have had any of the negative press and media circus around Chinatown.

Another scenario is that very recently demolition was approved for RFK stadium in DC. President Biden also signed a bill transferring the building from federal to city control. This is likely so the Josh Harris and the Commanders can start the process of building a new Commanders stadium in DC. There's a chance that once Josh Harris saw he could get a stadium in DC, he wanted to divert his money to that.

It would be very classic for DC to get a nice and transformative project while Philly gets the status quo. If the Commanders get a dome stadium where RFK was, it will host an insane amount of events, the location is incredible for a football stadium.

But also yes in general screw Chinatown. They weren't the reason it didn't happen but their constant backlash against any progress within 10 blocks of their neighborhood is nonsense. They have a sense of entitlement unlike any other neighborhood in Philly. They killed up the Phillies stadium at 11th and Spring Garden, it's still a dump. They killed the casino/hotel at 8th and Market, it's still empty. They tried to kill the convention center, it's a great project IMO. They tried to kill the commuter tunnel/Jefferson Station which is a transformative project. They complained about Patco reopening Franklin Square Station. They want the city to turn over the Roundhouse to PCDC FOR FREE so they can make a social housing project.

100%. This whole "you're gonna kill the fabric of our neighborhood" nonsense was nothing more than a money grab. And their Bull$hit theatrics had nothing to do with the 76ers backing out - that was pure capitalism. I watched the presser the NO Arena Coalition gave on Monday and they were acting like Erin Brockovich - the small guy that just slayed the billionaire corporation. The arena was approved. Your stupid coalition failed miserably.

Chinatown had its hand out for money since the beginning. They had said they have no problem with this if the CBA agreement gave them 300 million. It was a classic shakedown. Then they ginned up the whole liberal white entitled group(of which I am one) to stage sit-downs and cry on camera about how these poor people are being manipulated while their world around them collapses. "Our rents will sky-rocket," they screamed, leaving out the fact that Chinatown is owned by Asians. I'm enraged that Parker came out and re-committed the 20 million the city vowed to give Chinatown. That was supposed to combat challenges that would come up during nearby construction. Well there will be none of that. Just like you wanted. So why the hell are we giving that to them? Talk about irresponsible municipal spending. Oh and Chinatown has also reserved the right to give $hit to anyone who even thinks about building something on the south side of Market street. Unbelievable. What handout will they demand for that?

I'm PISSED about this pull-out. I think we missed a generational opportunity to finally shift gears and step-up to the San Frans, New Yorks and LAs. That opportunity is gone, likely never to happen. Everyone that says "there are more ways to improve Market Street" has no idea about business and development. It takes one thing. Money. How much money have you seen being dumped into Market Street - aside from the Ludlow and the Girard? How much is planned now? Money needs to come from developers who consider an area a good investment? Who thinks that stretch fits that description right now?

The NIMBYS in this town are laughable. Constantly shooting progress in the foot. It's embarrassing.