PHILADELPHIA | 76 Place | GENERAL DISCUSSION

[Justin7]

Originally Posted by thoughtcriminal

deleted post
I think the website I was linking to is a bunch of 🞵🞵🞵🞵, so I don't want to send them traffic

Calling the Wells Fargo Center an "iconic building" was at least good for a laugh.

[BroadandMarket]

Originally Posted by skyhigh07

TD Garden in Boston is another.

TD Garden (Boston)
MSG
Barclays Center (Brooklyn)
Chase Center (SF)
Bell Centre (Montreal)
Scotiabank Arena (Toronto)
Capitol One Arena (DC)
Staples Center (LA)
Not to mention basically every European city with an arena.

etc. etc. etc.

These are all peer cities with dense urban cores. We fucked it up and this was realistically the last chance for a center city arena. We don't have economies like any of those other cities, commercial and retail space in Market East is worthless.

In 50 years we may get a shot but probably not. Part of me wishes the 76ers picked the Roundhouse site (even though 11th and Market was better) so there would be less pushback. Of all the people I'm most disappointed with, Septa is the highest. They are so 🞵🞵🞵 🞵🞵🞵🞵 stupid that they didn't support this move. They should have used it as leverage for more funding instead of scaring people that they couldn't handle an extra 3,000 people on an event night. They are so pathetic.

The city can't really fix Market East, that has to come from private investment. The only thing they can do is sell the round house to the highest bidder instead of making them work around historic preservation. It's a chicken or the egg thing, I don't know anyone that wants to live in Market East because it's not very nice. But no one will build housing without the demand being higher. Also if you're a private investor, why would you ever consider anything close to Chinatown knowing it will be a PR shitstorm? National Realty and East Market did a great job but is there demand for 5 more towers like they built?

[nemesisinphilly]

Is it possible for the state to put in a KOZ in Market East to encourage development?

[Skintreesnail]

I still think some of you are going into panic mode too early. A stadium would have helped pushed development faster and it made a lot of sense for many reasons, but it's not the only way for market east to improve. It's adjacent to heavy tourist areas to the east and densely populated affluent areas to the south. Development has slowly worked its way north. Unless there's a complete breakdown of society and everyone suddenly decides to flee cities for whatever reason (and we'll have far more to worry about then), i don't see market east staying in it's current state much longer. It has too much potential and other areas in center city that also were neglected for years are built out now. Market east is the only place left for easy money.

[Skintreesnail]

Originally Posted by jaysb

If the mayor wants a signature project, she should throw her weight behind the Parkway Redesign! Yes, I'd prefer to have Market East fixed but I think that's more of a private venture. Haven't heard a peep about the parkway in a minute.

Posted this in the general chat but yesterday they announced a 23.3 million dollar grant for parkway redesign, so hopefully that's at least enough for an update or a few new renderings.

[3rd&Brown]

From Today's Inquirer:

"Aside from the pandemic, Tsao said, Chinatown has suffered under a series of circumstances, such as increasingly restrictive visa policies for Chinese nationals under the previous Trump administration, financial crises in China, and the migration of Chinese families into the suburbs coupled with the openings of businesses to serve them."

It's an odd strategy to fight the one thing that would have improved foot traffic.

Anyways...if Chinatown dies...it will be because Chinese abandon it. And then we'll be left with a sh*tty Market East and a sh*tty Chinatown. TBH, Chinatown isn't even that nice...but I understand its cultural significance.

Other tidbits:
"“We used to get 12,000 students per year from all over China coming to Drexel, Temple, and our hospitals,” Tsao said. “Drexel told me that now they have 500 to 600 students coming from China each year. Pre-pandemic, that number was 2,200.” EMei in particular is a hangout among Chinese students.

The slumping Chinese economy has also hurt Philadelphia’s Chinatown, Tsao said. “To send a child to the U.S. to study for a year costs about $100,000,” he said. “Many Chinese families have not been doing so well in the last four years.”

One voice of reason. Makes me want to support her specifically:

Sally Song, who recently moved her popular Dim Sum Garden into a larger space at 1024 Race St., said she felt “half and half” about the news. “If the arena were constructed, there could be more traffic and there isn’t that much now,” she said. “But it could also be that many customers would avoid the renovation area. It’s hard to say.”

[BroadandMarket]

Originally Posted by Skintreesnail

I still think some of you are going into panic mode too early. A stadium would have helped pushed development faster and it made a lot of sense for many reasons, but it's not the only way for market east to improve. It's adjacent to heavy tourist areas to the east and densely populated affluent areas to the south. Development has slowly worked its way north. Unless there's a complete breakdown of society and everyone suddenly decides to flee cities for whatever reason (and we'll have far more to worry about then), i don't see market east staying in it's current state much longer. It has too much potential and other areas in center city that also were neglected for years are built out now. Market east is the only place left for easy money.

I mean it's only gotten worse the last 5 years though? The opioid epidemic and L proximity has made the QOL issues way worse and way more visible to tourists. Covid remote work killed any office space viability. E commerce continues to kill retail.

Macy's is closing, Wanamaker's commercial space is totally vacant. Lit brothers Ross closed. Strawbridge's Giant Heirloom is closing. Rite Aid closed and was a spirit halloween. Marshall's, DSW, Century 21, Shoppers World, Target, Wawa all closed. The bourse is closed and their office space is empty. Curtis building is mostly empty for office space. Wells Fargo is exiting their lease at 5th and Market. 400 Market is mostly empty and sold for 10 million...it's a 10 floor office building.

[Skintreesnail]

Yeah it's in a bad way, but that makes it essentially a blank slate with some very attractive pre-war buildings mixed in with neighborhoods right next to it that people are spending a lot of money to live and visit. It's sitting on the nexus of all of our rail infrastructure. I'm not a developer but that just seems like an untapped goldmine to me.

[mcgrath618]

Originally Posted by BroadandMarket

I mean it's only gotten worse the last 5 years though?

Rite Aid closed and was a spirit halloween.

That same Spirit Halloween was on South Broad Street only a few years ago. That it isn't anymore should signal that South Broad is healing.

[mcgrath618]

Originally Posted by Skintreesnail

I still think some of you are going into panic mode too early. A stadium would have helped pushed development faster and it made a lot of sense for many reasons, but it's not the only way for market east to improve. It's adjacent to heavy tourist areas to the east and densely populated affluent areas to the south. Development has slowly worked its way north. Unless there's a complete breakdown of society and everyone suddenly decides to flee cities for whatever reason (and we'll have far more to worry about then), i don't see market east staying in it's current state much longer. It has too much potential and other areas in center city that also were neglected for years are built out now. Market east is the only place left for easy money.

+1

[Broadcastthatboom]

Originally Posted by Skintreesnail

Yeah it's in a bad way, but that makes it essentially a blank slate with some very attractive pre-war buildings mixed in with neighborhoods right next to it that people are spending a lot of money to live and visit. It's sitting on the nexus of all of our rail infrastructure. I'm not a developer but that just seems like an untapped goldmine to me.

We say this yet...how long has the prime lot of the Disney Hole sat completely empty for, 25 years? We keep saying the opportunity is there, but why hasn't anything changed except for things getting more empty and worse?

It's not a city-specific problem given massive development happening elsewhere (shoutout to PMC for building three high-rises next to each other in West Market/Logan Square, with more likely on the way by TJ's) which is further away than all the entertainment in center city vs Market St.

[Skintreesnail]

I don't know that it really was so prime until more recently though. If you look at the last few development rundowns and consider all the lowrise and renovations in addition it kind of makes sense. Maybe market east has been prime for a while but not as prime as all the other areas in center city. And it did have enough activity to sustain itself, in its mediocre state up until now. If you look at the fact that there's not that much left in center city to easily develop, just seems like the focus will now be on market east.

I'll just add when I first moved here in 05 Philadelphia was really just begging to hit its stride. There really wasn't much going on, no Schuylkill river trail, no comcast centers, run down mansions turned rentals lining pine and spruce, tons of empty lots on and around market, no penn park, no development at all around 30th and post office, no convention center expansion, kimel center just opened, liberty bell was in a shack, northern liberties was a wasteland, you didn't go south of south. I mean there was just so much to do.

[skyhigh07]

Originally Posted by Broadcastthatboom

We say this yet...how long has the prime lot of the Disney Hole sat completely empty for, 25 years? We keep saying the opportunity is there, but why hasn't anything changed except for things getting more empty and worse?

It's not a city-specific problem given massive development happening elsewhere (shoutout to PMC for building three high-rises next to each other in West Market/Logan Square, with more likely on the way by TJ's) which is further away than all the entertainment in center city vs Market St.

Agreed to everything you’ve said. I’d feel a lot more confident if development in CC wasn’t basically flatlined. I’m sure we’re all aware of the various projects that have been stalled for the last few years. Not a lot on the docket at the moment.

[PurpleWhiteOut]

Originally Posted by Skintreesnail

I don't know that it really was so prime until more recently though. If you look at the last few development rundowns and consider all the lowrise and renovations in addition it kind of makes sense. Maybe market east has been prime for a while but not as prime as all the other areas in center city. And it did have enough activity to sustain itself, in its mediocre state up until now. If you look at the fact that there's not that much left in center city to easily develop, just seems like the focus will now be on market east.

I'll just add when I first moved here in 05 Philadelphia was really just begging to hit its stride. There really wasn't much going on, no Schuylkill river trail, no comcast centers, run down mansions turned rentals lining pine and spruce, tons of empty lots on and around market, no penn park, no development at all around 30th and post office, no convention center expansion, kimel center just opened, liberty bell was in a shack, northern liberties was a wasteland, you didn't go south of south. I mean there was just so much to do.

I agree. We're only just now at the point where Center City is nearly fully developed. Besides parking lots peppered throughout CC, Market East is the largest area open to development. I believe the parcels are more assembled together under common ownership now than before, making development more likely. I think it will require interest rates dropping though

[Frontst17]

Originally Posted by Skintreesnail

I don't know that it really was so prime until more recently though. If you look at the last few development rundowns and consider all the lowrise and renovations in addition it kind of makes sense. Maybe market east has been prime for a while but not as prime as all the other areas in center city. And it did have enough activity to sustain itself, in its mediocre state up until now. If you look at the fact that there's not that much left in center city to easily develop, just seems like the focus will now be on market east.

I'll just add when I first moved here in 05 Philadelphia was really just begging to hit its stride. There really wasn't much going on, no Schuylkill river trail, no comcast centers, run down mansions turned rentals lining pine and spruce, tons of empty lots on and around market, no penn park, no development at all around 30th and post office, no convention center expansion, kimel center just opened, liberty bell was in a shack, northern liberties was a wasteland, you didn't go south of south. I mean there was just so much to do.

Finally some perspective, thank you

[Skintreesnail]

Sometimes i come here to remind myself how far Philadelphia has come:
https://maps.app.goo.gl/BRNa5bEFnT9ApmrbA?g_st=ac

[skyhigh07]

Originally Posted by Skintreesnail

I don't know that it really was so prime until more recently though. If you look at the last few development rundowns and consider all the lowrise and renovations in addition it kind of makes sense. Maybe market east has been prime for a while but not as prime as all the other areas in center city. And it did have enough activity to sustain itself, in its mediocre state up until now. If you look at the fact that there's not that much left in center city to easily develop, just seems like the focus will now be on market east.

I'll just add when I first moved here in 05 Philadelphia was really just begging to hit its stride. There really wasn't much going on, no Schuylkill river trail, no comcast centers, run down mansions turned rentals lining pine and spruce, tons of empty lots on and around market, no penn park, no development at all around 30th and post office, no convention center expansion, kimel center just opened, liberty bell was in a shack, northern liberties was a wasteland, you didn't go south of south. I mean there was just so much to do.

I’m not sure what development rundowns, low rises and renovations you are referring to. There hasn’t been a lot to discuss on here over the last year or so as everything is pretty much stalled.

The projects that are under construction right now managed to secure financing during a much different environment. I wouldn’t consider one step forward, one or two steps back to be progress.

[jaysb]

Originally Posted by Skintreesnail

Posted this in the general chat but yesterday they announced a 23.3 million dollar grant for parkway redesign, so hopefully that's at least enough for an update or a few new renderings.

Thanks, totally missed that one. About time.

[Raja]

Originally Posted by Skintreesnail

I don't know that it really was so prime until more recently though. If you look at the last few development rundowns and consider all the lowrise and renovations in addition it kind of makes sense. Maybe market east has been prime for a while but not as prime as all the other areas in center city. And it did have enough activity to sustain itself, in its mediocre state up until now. If you look at the fact that there's not that much left in center city to easily develop, just seems like the focus will now be on market east.

I'll just add when I first moved here in 05 Philadelphia was really just begging to hit its stride. There really wasn't much going on, no Schuylkill river trail, no comcast centers, run down mansions turned rentals lining pine and spruce, tons of empty lots on and around market, no penn park, no development at all around 30th and post office, no convention center expansion, kimel center just opened, liberty bell was in a shack, northern liberties was a wasteland, you didn't go south of south. I mean there was just so much to do.

This is good context. Sometimes it's easy to forget just how much progress there has been. I came to Philadelphia in '07, and recall Market East being grungy but still relatively active then. I suppose what makes it stand it out is that while numerous parts of the city have markedly improved over the past decade, Market East has declined. In fact, it's probably the only pocket of Center City that has declined over that period except perhaps for South Street, but even South Street has improved again the past couple years.

[BroadandMarket]

Originally Posted by Broadcastthatboom

We say this yet...how long has the prime lot of the Disney Hole sat completely empty for, 25 years? We keep saying the opportunity is there, but why hasn't anything changed except for things getting more empty and worse?

It's not a city-specific problem given massive development happening elsewhere (shoutout to PMC for building three high-rises next to each other in West Market/Logan Square, with more likely on the way by TJ's) which is further away than all the entertainment in center city vs Market St.

Yeah you've got stalled empty lots on Jewelers Row, Midtown Diner 2 and the Wendys. All of those are in way better areas than 10th and Market. So as long as they're stalled, I have no hope for anything breaking ground in Market East. The shift to the Schuylkill is clear that it's quality of life issues holding back Market East. The further away from an L stop, the better. In most other cities that's the opposite. but in Philly it's better to be further from a subway stop. The Marriott doesn't even have an entrance on Market Street anymore for security, you have to go to Filbert.

This is probably controversial but St. Stephen's Episcopal Church and the 2 methadone clinics at 8th and Market and 11th and Market are huge culprits as well.

I'm probably being overly negative but I'm just tired of waiting, the arena would have been a fast track.