National Economy

[YOWetal]

Originally Posted by acottawa

The Federal government’s direct COVID spending was $231B. There were 1.3M excess unemployed in June of 2020. If the money primarily went to people who lost their jobs that is about $177k per person who lost their job because of COVID.

You insist on over-simplifying and pretending a simple calculation shows how unnecessary all this was.

Businesses were kept open with loans and paycheck subsidies. This meant a lot less were unemployed in June 2020. Which meant more consumers for other businesses but also meant more of those businesses still existed in June 2021.
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You can argue poor kids didn't need GST credit top ups and extra CCB payments and even that lots of businesses that would have been fine got CEBA but the program was designed for speed with the idea better to get money out rather than bury people in bureaucracy.

A different government might not have had as money goodies for poor people but would have instead likely had something like a GST holiday and other tax cuts.

[1overcosc]

Originally Posted by Drybrain

Growing pains don't make for an abysmal failure. Close to 800,000 kids nationwide are enrolled in the Canada-wide child care program, for example, so all the chatter about how spots are "rare" or few people have benefitted are simply false. Despite the headlines, very few daycares have actually withdrawn, and those that have did so mainly due to implementation failures by the Ontario and Alberta governments.

The main problem is that the system is still plagued by a shortage of spaces and long waits, and promised new spaces aren't coming online as quickly as promised. That is a serious problem, but hardly renders the entire program an "abysmal failure", particularly given the huge volume of families for whom it's been a financial game changer. (Mine included--I have two children receiving extraordinary care in a daycare enrolled in the system, which has had no problems with it whatsoever.)

You're lucky. Don't mistake that luck for a system that works well overall.

This is one of our key problems with the Canadian system - it's essentially luck-based. Healthcare works if you're lucky enough to have a good family doctor. Daycare works if you're lucky enough to get a spot. Transit works if you're lucky enough to live & work in the right places. Education works if you have a good school assigned to your neighbourhood. Housing is affordable if you're lucky enough to have a rent-controlled apartment from a while ago or have bought a house at the right time & place. Workers rights systems work if you're lucky enough to have a union job. And so on, and so on...

This is why some people sing praises, and more importantly, it's so many people are so mad.. because the lucky people don't realize that they're lucky and try to convince everyone that everything is awesome.

[acottawa]

Originally Posted by YOWetal

You insist on over-simplifying and pretending a simple calculation shows how unnecessary all this was.

Businesses were kept open with loans and paycheck subsidies. This meant a lot less were unemployed in June 2020. Which meant more consumers for other businesses but also meant more of those businesses still existed in June 2021.
.
You can argue poor kids didn't need GST credit top ups and extra CCB payments and even that lots of businesses that would have been fine got CEBA but the program was designed for speed with the idea better to get money out rather than bury people in bureaucracy.

A different government might not have had as money goodies for poor people but would have instead likely had something like a GST holiday and other tax cuts.

The business side was the same thing, the vast majority of business was unaffected or lightly affected (finance, distribution, manufacturing, IT, agriculture, any retail that sold food, any retail with an online operation), rather than focus on the small percentage of businesses that were directly affected, they threw all sorts of money at the business sector overall, boosting profits and dividends.

Seniors didn’t need extra money (they were getting the same pensions as before COVID and had fewer expenses), students didn’t need extra money separate from other programs, part time and minimum wage workers didn’t need CERB payments way higher than their pre-COVID wages. All of this was not only inflationary, but encouraged people to leave the workforce, leading directly to labour shortages, leading directly to the massive increase in “students” leading directly to the housing crisis. There was a whole domino effect of stupidity that we still suffer from.

[Build.It]

That's not even to mention the disastrous effects ultra-low interest rates had on the economy, most notably causing a 50% increase in house prices.

[WarrenC12]

Originally Posted by 1overcosc

This is why some people sing praises, and more importantly, it's so many people are so mad.. because the lucky people don't realize that they're lucky and try to convince everyone that everything is awesome.

This is nonsense. Luck? Give me a break.

I will say that in healthcare you need to be your own best advocate. Call offices to make sure you are on the waitlist, call for updates to make sure things are progressing. Tell them you want to be on short notice cancellation lists. Follow up on your referrals, etc. It's not a white glove service industry but overall it works well for the money spent.

[CanSpice]

Originally Posted by 1overcosc

You're lucky. Don't mistake that luck for a system that works well overall.

This is one of our key problems with the Canadian system - it's essentially luck-based. Healthcare works if you're lucky enough to have a good family doctor. Daycare works if you're lucky enough to get a spot. Transit works if you're lucky enough to live & work in the right places. Education works if you have a good school assigned to your neighbourhood. Housing is affordable if you're lucky enough to have a rent-controlled apartment from a while ago or have bought a house at the right time & place. Workers rights systems work if you're lucky enough to have a union job. And so on, and so on...

This is why some people sing praises, and more importantly, it's so many people are so mad.. because the lucky people don't realize that they're lucky and try to convince everyone that everything is awesome.

Then we should increase the number of family doctors, expand daycare and make it more affordable, increase transit reach, increase funding to education, build more schools, and build more housing, so that having good access to all of those things is no longer a matter of luck.

[Build.It]

We'll find out how "lucky" they are once a fiscally-conservative government takes over.

IMO anyone who is dependent on the government to keep a roof over their head should be on alert.

[CanSpice]

Originally Posted by Build.It

We'll find out how "lucky" they are once a fiscally-conservative government takes over.

IMO anyone who is dependent on the government to keep a roof over their head should be on alert.

That's everybody in Canada, you realize.

[Build.It]

Originally Posted by CanSpice

That's everybody in Canada, you realize.

100%, everyone is exposed to some extent, but by no means is this spread uniformly.

The more layers deep you are in the private sector, the better off you will be.

The solution is to have something to offer to the government should they need it, but not be dependent on them.

[WarrenC12]

Originally Posted by Build.It

100%, everyone is exposed to some extent, but by no means is this spread uniformly.

The more layers deep you are in the private sector, the better off you will be.

The solution is to have something to offer to the government should they need it, but not be dependent on them.

The private sector is the first to kick you to the curb at any sign of a recession.

This reminds me of people who salivate over a 50% cut in home prices, thinking they'll be able to finally get into the market. Of course the assumption is that the economy hasn't collapsed and they'll still have their exact job and income, or more!

[YOWetal]

Originally Posted by WarrenC12

The private sector is the first to kick you to the curb at any sign of a recession.

This reminds me of people who salivate over a 50% cut in home prices, thinking they'll be able to finally get into the market. Of course the assumption is that the economy hasn't collapsed and they'll still have their exact job and income, or more!

Yes 100%. Equally ridiculous the over-leveraged landlords hoping for 2% rates again not realizing that means recession and price drops and reduced rental demand or non-payment etc.

[harls]

Originally Posted by CanSpice

That's everybody in Canada, you realize.

Not Build.It. He's got it all figured out.

[Build.It]

Originally Posted by harls

Not Build.It. He's got it all figured out.

I promise you I do not.

However I do have a massive "🞵🞵🞵🞵-hits-the-fan" detector and am about as prepared as I can be for whatever we're about to go through.

[1overcosc]

Originally Posted by CanSpice

Then we should increase the number of family doctors, expand daycare and make it more affordable, increase transit reach, increase funding to education, build more schools, and build more housing, so that having good access to all of those things is no longer a matter of luck.

Most people are not willing to pay the tax increases required to do this. We either need mass austerity to match service levels to taxation, or we need tax hikes. And with much of the population feeling like they're not getting the benefits anyway, its not hard to see why they would support the austerity route.

"The government is never going to be able to provide good services, so I have to rely on myself and my own resources anyway, so I might as well just vote for whoever cuts my taxes the most" becomes a pretty rational response, in other words.

[1overcosc]

Originally Posted by CanSpice

That's everybody in Canada, you realize.

Therein lies the problem...

People should be able to take care of themselves for the most part. You'll always need a social safety net to catch those that through the cracks, but depending on one shouldn't be the norm.

[Nite]

91,000 jobs created in December
Unemployment rate falls 0.1 to 6.7%



https://www150.statcan.gc.ca/n1/daily-quotidien/250110/dq250110a-eng.htm

[YOWetal]

Originally Posted by Nite

91,000 jobs created in December
Unemployment rate falls 0.1 to 6.7%

Pretty strong number. Interesting to see Quebec the absolute leader. A lot less fake students there. Ontario substantially above the Canadian average.

[Build.It]

It's better than last month's reading. Public sector accounts for 40,000 of those 91,000 jobs.

[Acajack]

François Legault tweet coming up in 5-4-3-2-1...

[YOWetal]

Originally Posted by Acajack

François Legault tweet coming up in 5-4-3-2-1...

I mean fair enough. How often has Quebec led the whole country in unemployment?

Originally Posted by Build.It

It's better than last month's reading. Public sector accounts for 40,000 of those 91,000 jobs.

Though public administration shrunk with the more useful parts of public sector like education leading the growth. Kind of strange for education to grow given all we hear about are job cuts from the loss of the fake students.