Surrey Langley Skytrain - Expo Line Extension | U/C

[Metro-One]

This is going to be a fun classic skytrain style construction project to watch movie along.

[BaddieB]

Going off the Evergreen Extension, it took about 2 to 2.5 years from the beginning of construction to have the guideway complete. This would mean we could expect the guideway for SLS to be complete around Spring of 2027.

[WarrenC12]

Originally Posted by dpogue

The staging and positioning of trains going into service is also important, particularly given that maintenance staff are out along the track every night and trains can't move until they have all of their equipment back in the yard. New OMCs provide new staging areas for that maintenance equipment to deploy faster, and also allow trains to enter the line closer to where they need to go into revenue service.

Thanks I appreciate the summary.

I do maintain we could do with less than 5 OMCs once all is said and done.

[Mac Write]

With OMC5 and "official" start and "End" of service is at King George station, having a massive OMC for like 60 x5-car trains and space to go to 60 x 6-car trains in 30 years, would allow less staging and feeding the Expo line from Langly, KG, OMC-1 a future Waterfront OMC?

THen feed M-like from OMC 4, a bigger OMC3 and OMC6? that is just past VCC-clark when the space comes free.

[xd_1771]

My understanding is that the initial, opening-day fleet expansion that is dedicated to SLS (the 30 additional Mark V cars) will be run out of OMC4, because the lot they were able to obtain for OMC4 has allowed TL to build a much bigger facility than previously envisioned, meaning it can now support a bigger slice of system expansion. (Keep in mind that we now also have a bigger than-expected OMC3 facility as TL opted to cannibalize some of the land reservation for Falcon Drive Station to add more storage tracks).

So while OMC5 is to be located on the SLS, and is using the technical/planned allocation for an SLS OMC (including in budget, as the 2022 final business case stipulated that SLS budget will contribute to an OMC), it is more accurate to say that OMC5 is no longer an (initial) SLS component, and is now an expansion project on its own—albeit one that will quickly follow the SLS.

It does seem like OMC5's opening will be offset from the rest of the SLS, which will be likely if it follows that brochure-listed construction start date of 2027. However, once it is online it will likely take over whatever share of OMC4 is initially dedicated to Expo Line operations, allowing OMC4 to be completely dedicated to Millennium Line and support its ridership growth over time (esp if we proceed with UBCx).

[BaddieB]

Hypothetically, what's stopping Translink from storing trains on the existing main tracks at night? Assuming they don't clean every train every night.

[chowhou]

Originally Posted by BaddieB

Hypothetically, what's stopping Translink from storing trains on the existing main tracks at night? Assuming they don't clean every train every night.

Nothing; In fact some are. Bear in mind that the tracks can't be used as storage during the day, since not all trains are running all day and the tracks (besides sidings) obviously need to be clear.

[dpogue]

Originally Posted by BaddieB

Hypothetically, what's stopping Translink from storing trains on the existing main tracks at night? Assuming they don't clean every train every night.

They have (and do with current yard capacity issues) park trains on the track overnight, particularly at King George and around the Edmond pocket tracks. They used to have a bunch of trains parked along the Millennium Line around Sperling.

This poses issues for maintenance staff access to parts of the track because they can't de-energize the guideway underneath the parked trains, and there have been issues in the past with trains being vandalized/graffitied while stored outside of yards.

I believe all trains get cleaned every night, so parking trains along the mainline track involves positioning cleaning crews at terminus stations and holding up service long enough for trains to be cleaned (which used to happen at Lougheed as trains were being taken out at end of service).

[Kisai]

Originally Posted by BaddieB

Hypothetically, what's stopping Translink from storing trains on the existing main tracks at night? Assuming they don't clean every train every night.

Nothing, but the potential for vandalization.
https://dailyhive.com/vancouver/translink-skytrain-car-graffiti-vandalism



Also this one from years earlier


Basically you don't want to store the trains on the tracks or the stations if there is access to the guideway in an area that isn't fenced in.

In the top image, I'm not sure how it happened, but I suspect the tagging happened in the station. The one in the bottom however apparently was in a at-grade reachable section.

Basically if you don't store your trains at night in the OMC, and don't protect the OMC from intrusions, they will get tagged. the stations are a bit easier to protect a single train because access to to the stations is sealed when out of service. So in order to tag a train in the station, someone would need to break into the fire escape. I know for one example is the Royal Oak station which the fire escape is just on the other side of the road and I've seen it free-swinging open on multiple occasions.

You wouldn't want to store a train on the tracks at Edmonds because it's basically at grade and egress from the station is too easy.

https://www.translink.ca/-/media/transli...l-estate/skytrain_limits_of_approach.pdf

Note: Entry into Automatic Train Control (ATC) territory is not
permitted. Accidental entry must be reported and documented. It
is an Offence under the TransLink Rules & Regulations to
interfere with the operation of a vehicle, or to damage equipment
or transit property (SCBCTA Act).

Basically if you approach within 3 meters of the train guideway (for authorized work), you are supposed to tell translink.

So these people who intrude on the track itself, are risking electrocution or death if the train starts moving. It's actually super risky for the people who operate the advertisements and signage on the across-track areas because if they fall in, they are dead if the train moves. I presume when work on these things happen, they happen by parking a train on the track to bridge the station to the advertisement and then have the train put into manual operation with the doors locked open.

Vandals obviously don't have that benefit, and what we've seen from security videos before, is they often stand on top of the third rail cover, which means they are inches from death.

[dpogue]

Originally Posted by Kisai

It's actually super risky for the people who operate the advertisements and signage on the across-track areas because if they fall in, they are dead if the train moves. I presume when work on these things happen, they happen by parking a train on the track to bridge the station to the advertisement and then have the train put into manual operation with the doors locked open.

That type of work happens at night with the tracks fully powered down, no trains in the area, and work zones locked out on the control computer so that no trains can enter that track space.

Which is the type of work that is hard to do in areas where there are trains being stored overnight.

[Klazu]

Great to have this finally under construction, but the price tag being now 6 BILLION dollars is just ludicrous.

[mcj]

Originally Posted by Klazu

Great to have this finally under construction, but the price tag being now 6 BILLION dollars is just ludicrous.

I mean, sure the latest price tag is shocking if you haven't kept up with how much construction has been inflated over the last few years, but sitting and waiting on this project for 17 years (this thread started in 2008) isn't going to make things cheaper. Maybe without Dianne Watt's obfuscating LRT plans this would have been done sooner and therefore cheaper but here we are

[aberdeen5698]

Originally Posted by Kisai

Basically you don't want to store the trains on the tracks or the stations if there is access to the guideway in an area that isn't fenced in.

I imagine that storing trains in underground sections of the track would be preferable because out of sight = out of mind.

[Metro-One]

Originally Posted by mcj

I mean, sure the latest price tag is shocking if you haven't kept up with how much construction has been inflated over the last few years, but sitting and waiting on this project for 17 years (this thread started in 2008) isn't going to make things cheaper. Maybe without Dianne Watt's obfuscating LRT plans this would have been done sooner and therefore cheaper but here we are

This isn’t an excuse into how out of control budgets for road and rail projects have become. It is getting to the point where they will become impossible to initiate from ballooning costs. This goes for the entire country.

I don’t want to know what the cost estimates for the Purple Line will be.

And talking about dragging feet, I can’t wait for a cost estimate update on the George Massey Tunnel project…. Which of course would have been a completed project at this point.

[mcj]

Originally Posted by Metro-One

This isn’t an excuse into how out of control budgets for road and rail projects have become. It is getting to the point where they will become impossible to initiate from ballooning costs. This goes for the entire country.

I don’t want to know what the cost estimates for the Purple Line will be.

And talking about dragging feet, I can’t wait for a cost estimate update on the George Massey Tunnel project…. Which of course would have been a completed project at this point.

$6 Billion IS the budget for this, previously quoted numbers were just estimates. $6 Billion is where this landed after signing the contracts.

But yeah, it is expensive to build in North America, largely because we rely on private industry to build projects, and private industry always needs a healthy profit margin (20%+) to even consider a project. Then you have subcontractors on subcontractors for every project all with their own profit margins to be had, and cost-plus additions (usually 10%+) when those costs are forwarded up the chain.

Asian and European nations do it cheaper because they eliminate a lot of that wasteful profit taking through having state owned entities that are able to oversee projects like this competently.

[jollyburger]

Originally Posted by Kisai

In the top image, I'm not sure how it happened, but I suspect the tagging happened in the station. The one in the bottom however apparently was in a at-grade reachable section.

The article you linked to

TransLink spokesperson Jill Drews told Daily Hive Urbanized the vandalism occurred while the train was stored on a section of track on an elevated guideway behind a security fence.

Breaking into the guideway passage is a thing as well

https://globalnews.ca/video/8898790/caug...investigating-skytrain-graffiti-break-in

Five months ago

https://www.reddit.com/r/vancouver/comments/1enux6r/pretty_good_skytrain_tag_job/?rdt=57258

[chowhou]

Originally Posted by mcj

$6 Billion IS the budget for this, previously quoted numbers were just estimates. $6 Billion is where this landed after signing the contracts.

But yeah, it is expensive to build in North America, largely because we rely on private industry to build projects, and private industry always needs a healthy profit margin (20%+) to even consider a project. Then you have subcontractors on subcontractors for every project all with their own profit margins to be had, and cost-plus additions (usually 10%+) when those costs are forwarded up the chain.

Asian and European nations do it cheaper because they eliminate a lot of that wasteful profit taking through having state owned construction companies that are able to produce projects like this.

I'm sorry, which Asian and European countries do it cheaper because of state owned construction companies? Spain has the lowest construction costs in Europe and the Broadway Extension and Surrey Langley Skytrain are both being built by the same company that tends to build their metro lines: Acciona.

The only country I can think of that arguably has a state owned corporation handling metro line construction is Hong Kong with the MTR corporation, and the South Island Line cost $3.5 billion in CAD in 2016 for a 7.5km 5 station line. The SLS will be twice the length with almost twice the stations for less than twice that price.

For-profit companies aren't the issue here.

[Greetingsfromcanada]

Originally Posted by mcj

$6 Billion IS the budget for this, previously quoted numbers were just estimates. $6 Billion is where this landed after signing the contracts.

But yeah, it is expensive to build in North America, largely because we rely on private industry to build projects, and private industry always needs a healthy profit margin (20%+) to even consider a project. Then you have subcontractors on subcontractors for every project all with their own profit margins to be had, and cost-plus additions (usually 10%+) when those costs are forwarded up the chain.

Asian and European nations do it cheaper because they eliminate a lot of that wasteful profit taking through having state owned construction companies that are able to produce projects like this.

Spain is the greatest builder in Europe and does not use public sector company. Instead, it limits consultations to the bone and in houses the design portion of development that it then hands off to private sector companies to construct.

In Canada, we consult and study projects to death, allow special interest groups guide project design and then send out requests for proposals to salvage the frankenstein projects we've developed to actually be designed, which follows more consultations and studies. Finally after this step, this unruly beast is handed off to private sector builders.

[mcj]

Originally Posted by chowhou

I'm sorry, which Asian and European countries do it cheaper because of state owned construction companies? Spain has the lowest construction costs in Europe and the Broadway Extension and Surrey Langley Skytrain are both being built by the same company that tends to build their metro lines: Acciona.

The only country I can think of that arguably has a state owned corporation handling metro line construction is Hong Kong with the MTR corporation, and the South Island Line cost $3.5 billion in CAD in 2016 for a 7.5km 5 station line. The SLS will be twice the length with almost twice the stations for less than twice that price.

For-profit companies aren't the issue here.

Corrected the response there. I was thinking of the state-owned infrastructure managers like ADIF in Spain, which is a large reason for why they are able to control costs so well. That and they never stop building, and use the local contractors like Acciona, Dragados, etc. that we bring over here to build these projects instead of building BC based contractors from the ground up. This project is doing a good job of requiring these firms to have a local partner though which could eventually make things better.

But as you also point out, construction is expensive everywhere and 50% estimate increases over the last 5 years have become commonplace.

[CanSpice]

Originally Posted by chowhou

I'm sorry, which Asian and European countries do it cheaper because of state owned construction companies? Spain has the lowest construction costs in Europe and the Broadway Extension and Surrey Langley Skytrain are both being built by the same company that tends to build their metro lines: Acciona.

I'm sure this article describing how Madrid built its Metro cheaply has been around SSP over the past month, but the synopsis seems to be:

1. Metro areas (such as the Community of Madrid, the rough equivalent of Metro Vancouver) has greater flexibility in levying taxes, including income and VAT, that they can use to raise funds for things like transit (Madrid has the Regional Consortium of Transportation, similar to TransLink).
2. Time is money, so they removed burdensome environmental impact requirements (required them, just didn't make them as extensive), sped up approval of projects, and worked 24/7 to finish construction.
3. Trade-offs are explicitly considered, so things like "design should be focused on the needs of the users, rather than on architectural beauty or exotic materials" are taken into account.
4. A pipeline of projects enables the state to invest in its own capacity. Madrid has its own team of engineers, geotech experts, etc, etc, etc, instead of having to go out to third-party consultants, and they gained experience quickly because of the constant pipeline of projects. "With eight different tunnel boring machines operating 24/7 there were a lot of tunneling engineers solving problems and gaining experience. According to project folklore, these engineers would meet up after their shifts in Madrid’s tapas bars and discuss their challenges or successes, engaging in informal competitions to tunnel faster, encouraging speed and reducing costs."

The whole document is definitely worth a read.