National Economy

[kwoldtimer]

Originally Posted by Acajack

Switzerland benefits greatly from a look-the-other-way attitude as to where money comes from that transits through its banking system.

A lot of European Jews who died in the Holocaust had much wealth placed in Switzerland, and which was never claimed.

The Swiss tradition of sitting on mountains of illegal, immoral, and otherwise questionable wealth. Not to mention providing a safe haven for much of the art world's jiggery-pokery.

[YOWetal]

Originally Posted by Build.It

I honestly have a difficult time explaining the Scandinavian countries' high tax burden models. The only explanation I can come up with is they have universal citizen buy-in (where most citizens agree that high taxes = a good thing), and they have competent politicians representing these values.

That being said, Switzerland is a significant outlier (low tax, small government Euro country) and also happens to beat the Scandinavian/Netherlands countries in GDP/capita and R&D/capita while having similar income inequality. Switzerland also has a significant geographic disadvantage versus Scandinavian/Netherlands, being landlocked, surrounded by mountains (making trade extremely difficult) and not much in terms of natural resources (especially compared to Norway).

Both Switzerland and Scandinavia has high buy-in from its citizens despite the very different models. I think at the end of the day, buy-in is what truly matters the most. If everyone is on the same page then it's a lot easier for a system to work, whatever that system may be.

That being said, the Swiss model does appear to work better, even if it's only marginally.

Coming back to Canada, since we have people from all over the world living here, from different backgrounds, and different political beliefs, different values, etc, we have some work to do to find a system that works for everyone to get that buy-in. I don't see Canada ever becoming a high-tax nation though for a variety of reasons, but mainly 1. We live next to the US so have to compete with their capitalist system, and 2. The people who move here generally come from corrupt countries and believe in more limited governments.

I agree with most of this though economics is more complicated than simply saying X system works better than X because of GDP.

I think buy in we are learning is severely lacking in Canada. The resentment is growing so best to lower taxes and benefits and get the growth that will come even if there are second order effects.

[theman23]

There's lack of buy in because people have no confidence in the quality of the public services we receive.

[Build.It]

Originally Posted by theman23

There's lack of buy in because people have no confidence in the quality of the public services we receive.

They also know we are over-paying for what we're getting. And every time the government tries to charge more for a new service it tends to be an abysmal failure (childcare, dental care, euthanasia, for example).

I remember in 2023 when 150,000 civil servants went on strike and there wasn't any noticeable disruption in our day-to-day lives. Hell even my taxes got processed on time despite people apparently not working.

[lio45]

Originally Posted by Build.It

… surrounded by mountains (making trade extremely difficult)

True for the Italian and Austrian sides, but the road connections to France and Germany (west and north sides) are perfectly reasonable. Pretty sure both Geneva and Basel are connected to France via direct multi-lane divided freeways, let alone the rail network (10x superior to what we’re used to here). It’s not anywhere near our Far North where a head of lettuce is $30, etc. In fact I’d never have even thought of saying Switzerland has any problems with supply chains of stuff.

[Drybrain]

Originally Posted by Build.It

They also know we are over-paying for what we're getting. And every time the government tries to charge more for a new service it tends to be an abysmal failure (childcare, dental care, euthanasia, for example).

I remember in 2023 when 150,000 civil servants went on strike and there wasn't any noticeable disruption in our day-to-day lives. Hell even my taxes got processed on time despite people apparently not working.

Growing pains don't make for an abysmal failure. Close to 800,000 kids nationwide are enrolled in the Canada-wide child care program, for example, so all the chatter about how spots are "rare" or few people have benefitted are simply false. Despite the headlines, very few daycares have actually withdrawn, and those that have did so mainly due to implementation failures by the Ontario and Alberta governments.

The main problem is that the system is still plagued by a shortage of spaces and long waits, and promised new spaces aren't coming online as quickly as promised. That is a serious problem, but hardly renders the entire program an "abysmal failure", particularly given the huge volume of families for whom it's been a financial game changer. (Mine included--I have two children receiving extraordinary care in a daycare enrolled in the system, which has had no problems with it whatsoever.)

[WarrenC12]

Originally Posted by YOWetal

What specifically is the easy choice that would suddenly make our economy better. Mostly we have made choices. A few virtue signal own goals in the resource sector but even those are hard to unwind and are complex.

If PP/CPC supporters think some of Trudeau's policies are useless and just virtue signaling (say, the carbon tax), then it means undoing those are just virtue signaling and not real policy either. You can't have it both ways.

[WarrenC12]

Originally Posted by Acajack

Switzerland benefits greatly from a look-the-other-way attitude as to where money comes from that transits through its banking system.

A lot of European Jews who died in the Holocaust had much wealth placed in Switzerland, and which was never claimed.

No kidding. There is no point in comparing us to a place like that. Apples and Orangutans.

[WarrenC12]

Originally Posted by acottawa

If we had just done what you describe (compensate people who could not work for their lost income) then the COVID bill would have been a fraction what it was.

Sure, this is all the benefit of hindsight. But if we could have a do-over, what would we save? $10B? Sure that's plenty of money, but as a one-time pandemic mistake, who cares.

[WarrenC12]

Originally Posted by Build.It

They also know we are over-paying for what we're getting. And every time the government tries to charge more for a new service it tends to be an abysmal failure (childcare, dental care, euthanasia, for example).

Explain how these policies are abysmal failures.

[WarrenC12]

.

[YOWetal]

Originally Posted by WarrenC12

If PP/CPC supporters think some of Trudeau's policies are useless and just virtue signaling (say, the carbon tax), then it means undoing those are just virtue signaling and not real policy either. You can't have it both ways.

Well there are different views. Some think the Carbon tax is the major reason for inflation and is a huge drag on economic growth. That isn't really supported by the facts. I say it's on the list of virtue signaling because it's inconsequential to Canada's emissions which are inconsequential to the world's output. It certainly has a negative economic impact and achieves nothing thus virtue signaling. Putting a cap on our emissions in the oil and gas sector is as above a signal we care about the environment that reduces investment in a key economic sector that delivers prosperity for us all. Refusing overtures for LNG exports in the immediate aftermath of Russia's invasion makes us feel good as we are leading the transition to such things as zero carbon hydrogen but does nothing but give economic advantage to others.

Real policies like increasing capital gains tax, cracking down on sole proprietorship, raising high income taxes and lowering the middle bracket are certainly also reduced economic growth. They do have a positive effect on income distribution in the country but the trade off is real. Unlike the above there are real benefits along with the costs. Especially when some of it funded CCB increases, OAS increases and new benefits like dental benefits for low income folks.

[acottawa]

Originally Posted by WarrenC12

Sure, this is all the benefit of hindsight. But if we could have a do-over, what would we save? $10B? Sure that's plenty of money, but as a one-time pandemic mistake, who cares.

The Federal government’s direct COVID spending was $231B. There were 1.3M excess unemployed in June of 2020. If the money primarily went to people who lost their jobs that is about $177k per person who lost their job because of COVID.

[acottawa]

Originally Posted by WarrenC12

If PP/CPC supporters think some of Trudeau's policies are useless and just virtue signaling (say, the carbon tax), then it means undoing those are just virtue signaling and not real policy either. You can't have it both ways.

But the undoing of the virtue signalling saves money.

[WarrenC12]

Originally Posted by acottawa

But the undoing of the virtue signalling saves money.

Ok, but nothing substantial. That's why they are virtue signals right? Removing taxes does not save money, it reduces revenue.

[svlt]

Originally Posted by acottawa

But the undoing of the virtue signalling saves money.

Not anywhere near enough to meaningfully change anyone's lives or livelihoods. To the average person it might mean a couple of fewer dinners out... in a year.

Obviously we need to see far more from their platform when the writ is dropped than 3 word slogans

[acottawa]

Originally Posted by WarrenC12

Ok, but nothing substantial. That's why they are virtue signals right? Removing taxes does not save money, it reduces revenue.

The virtue signals don’t do the things Trudeau says they do. They still do something such as cost taxpayers money, or slow down government operations or waste money.

[whatnext]

Originally Posted by Acajack

Switzerland benefits greatly from a look-the-other-way attitude as to where money comes from that transits through its banking system.

A lot of European Jews who died in the Holocaust had much wealth placed in Switzerland, and which was never claimed.

And you think Canada doesn’t benefit in the same way?!

We’re a laughingstock internationally for our lax rules and enforcement on money laundering.

TD fines show Canada becoming the ‘soft underbelly’ of international money laundering — here’s why

Canada’s dirty money is funding instability in the Middle East

Lavish Money Laundering Schemes Exposed in Canada

[YOWetal]

Originally Posted by acottawa

The virtue signals don’t do the things Trudeau says they do. They still do something such as cost taxpayers money, or slow down government operations or waste money.

Yes but the non-environmental ones are really pretty marginal in cost. Though maybe having experienced people at all levels of government instead of 50% quotas and other DEI programs means we actually have policies that do make a difference. I think that's doubtful as the policy direction seems to have come from Trudeau himself. Morneau was a voice for restraint that was ignored. Freeland was also a voice for restraint I understand from insiders just completely loyal in the way she went about it. (Until pushed to a breaking point)

Unshackling government from all of this focus won't fix things on its own but it will enable an actual nimble and efficient government to address the bigger problems.

It starts with his cabinet. With 200+ MPS he can certainly find a cabinet that is "qualified" and half women etc. Or will he pick a small and lean cabinet which will be laser focussed on results regardless of what boxes they check? (geographic diversity of course is always a limitation in Canada)

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by whatnext

And you think Canada doesn’t benefit in the same way?!

We’re a laughingstock internationally for our lax rules and enforcement on money laundering.

TD fines show Canada becoming the ‘soft underbelly’ of international money laundering — here’s why

Canada’s dirty money is funding instability in the Middle East

Lavish Money Laundering Schemes Exposed in Canada

Of course we're no saints. But Switzerland has it down to an art form and a way of life.

Going back many many generations.

There is a considerable amount of historically "seeded" wealth there that has blood all over it.