Quebec, the French Language, and Quebecois Identity

[lio45]

Originally Posted by New Brisavoine

Stunning. This place is 2 hours and 17 minutes from Montréal by car according to Google Map.

If you go NW from Mtl you’ll hit somewhat similar spots (though with slightly less topography than the Adirondacks) even closer.

[P'tit Renard]

Originally Posted by lio45

The motto “Yours to discover” being close to false advertising then…? (A less controversial one would be “There’s a number of things to do in Ontario” )

If Southern Ontario had something like this I'd be discovering it everyday..love that Charlevoix has at least a few of these circuits:

Getting the BEST View of the Saguenay Fjord in Québec | Via Ferrata
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9uzc0kj7m94

Or a trail like L'Acropole des Draveurs..

https://www.alltrails.com/fr/randonnee/canada/quebec/acropole-des-draveurs

[Acajack]

Food and culture are generally better and more interesting in the touristy parts of Quebec outside the cities, with a few exceptions in Ontario like Prince Edward County and Niagara.

Muskoka and cottage country north of Toronto pales in comparison on this stuff relative to the Laurentians and Eastern Townships of Quebec.

[New Brisavoine]

Originally Posted by New Brisavoine

https://www.lefigaro.fr/international/de...t-fusionner-avec-les-etats-unis-20250106

Some reactions on Twitter. You gotta love the French. And he's probably not isolated in thinking that way.

[New Brisavoine]

Originally Posted by New Brisavoine

And he's probably not isolated in thinking that way.

Ah ah, I was so right. This guy below is a very famous Twitter account in France, with more than 18,000 followers, and not an extremist at all. He actually posts very interesting stuff usually (he's a liberal commentator, in economics I mean). Of course it's tongue-in-cheek, but I know many people think that way here...

[1overcosc]

Originally Posted by Acajack

Muskoka and cottage country north of Toronto pales in comparison on this stuff relative to the Laurentians and Eastern Townships of Quebec.

I would strongly disagree on that, actually. Muskoka itself is very overrated but go northeast of Toronto, to places like Bon Echo, Algonquin, NFPL, etc. it easily matches anything in the Laurentians for natural beauty, if perhaps with less amenities/infrastructure.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by 1overcosc

I would strongly disagree on that, actually. Muskoka itself is very overrated but go northeast of Toronto, to places like Bon Echo, Algonquin, NFPL, etc. it easily matches anything in the Laurentians for natural beauty, if perhaps with less amenities/infrastructure.

Sorry, I wasn’t talking about natural beauty. I meant food and culture.

I am familiar with Muskoka, Kawarthas, etc., and while there is a huge amount of wealth there (huge lake houses, fancy boats) it’s surprising how “rough” things are in terms of culture (in the broad sense, which includes food).

[P'tit Renard]

Originally Posted by 1overcosc

You need to really get out there in Southern Ontario to see the beauty of it. Cottage country gets progressively nicer as you go further east and it's the section east of Highway 41 that's the most beautiful. This is also the farthest part from Toronto so I get your point. It's also a bit more logistically inaccessible than equivalent scenery in Quebec. By that I mean to get to some of these perfectly beautiful spots in Frontenac County, for example, it means having to drive on a dirt road that the general public isn't allowed to drive on without buying a pass from the local ATV club (which anyone can buy for a fee, you just have to actually go get it during the hours they're open), park on the side of the road and then hike for 4 hours in a place where there are no signs or public washrooms. Personally I absolutely adore the "secret getaway" vibes that this sort of thing creates, but I 100% get why it's not everybody.

East of Highway 41, that's around Bon Echo provincial park? Probably one of the nicest areas in Ontario for sure, too bad it's a 4-5+ hour drive in the summer from the GTA.

That's what I loved most about BC, exploring the abandoned logging roads there in the backcountry that would take you to these fantasy level secret escapes and panoramas, and at the same time it's less than an hour or so from Vancouver.

[theman23]

Originally Posted by P'tit Renard

East of Highway 41, that's around Bon Echo provincial park? Probably one of the nicest areas in Ontario for sure, too bad it's a 4-5+ hour drive in the summer from the GTA.

That's what I loved most about BC, exploring the abandoned logging roads there in the backcountry that would take you to these fantasy level secret escapes and panoramas, and at the same time it's less than an hour or so from Vancouver.

There isn't anything in this country that compares to B.C., the whole province is a playground if you're outdoorsy.

There are no mountains and lack of elevation makes it harder to come across those vantage points in Ontario, but you can still sometime get those moments near a cliff edge along a body of water which there is no shortage of.

I don't think Ontario is that bad honestly, it just has stiff competition. Those drives used to be shorter, but there area few nice places close by Toronto for a weekend getaway and more if you're willing to head to upstate New York. And of course if you're in eastern Ontario/Ottawa, things are much better.

As far as food, there's a decent selection in SW Ontario of restaurants serving their interpretation of rustic Ontario/Canadian cuisine. A lot of them are quite good. If you're in the towns, finding good food isn't an issue.

[Loco101]

Originally Posted by Acajack

As I have mentioned before, for some reason Acadiens in the Maritimes do that. (I don't have a Le- or La- surname, so I've never had the dilemma.) It's almost a bit "Channel Island-ish" or Jersiais.

In Quebec they generally don't do that:

https://ca.linkedin.com/in/michel-leblanc-3899904

It seems to be an Acadian thing from my observations. I just look up "Leblanc" and "LeBlanc" obituaries in Timmins and almost all of them are "Leblanc" but we do have "LeBlanc" families and most of them have Acadian roots and many were or their parents were originally from New Brunswick.

[Loco101]

Originally Posted by 1overcosc

From what I gather (Acajack and lio can correct me if I'm wrong), Quebecois actually were more upset at Justin Trudeau's French than Stephen Harper's French. Trudeau is supposed to have French as his mother tongue (raised by francophone parents, seen as being "from Quebec", etc.) so the expectation is that he should speak French perfectly and his hesitation in the language gets people mad. By contrast Harper, as an Anglo-Canadian politician with roots in Toronto & Calgary who first learned French as an adult when he pursued national leadership, there wasn't much expectation that he'd become fluent and so he gets more credit for "trying".

I really haven't heard about francophones being upset about the quality of French of Justin Trudeau. Maybe it happens from some intellectuals who like to nitpick but JT knows the proper words and terms to use and has won in Quebec riding where about half of his constituents have French at their mother-tongue. The average Quebecer does not speak as well or as formally as JT.

I have to correct your information about Justin Trudeau. He was born and raised as a child in Ottawa. His Mother Margaret is anglophone, does not speak French very well and is originally from BC. JT actually didn't speak French very well as a young child as he spent much more time with his Mother (his Father was PM) and his Father Pierre put him in a private high school in Montreal so that he would learn it better which he did.

JT is just as "Québécois" as someone such as Acajack if we want to be picky. To me it just means someone who is a resident of Quebec. I know that a number francophone Quebecers use it in the cultural and linguistic aspects as well so that's what I'm referring to when comparing with Acajack.

My French is pretty good that I often get mistaken for an Anglo-Quebecer when travelling throughout Quebec. I've had a few experiences where people thought my French wasn't up to par as they assumed that I lived in Quebec but when I told them that I live in Northeastern Ontario they apologized and said that they couldn't believe an anglophone from Ontario could speak French that well.

[Loco101]

Originally Posted by P'tit Renard

I find a lot of the disinterest in the GTA is also due to the crazy amount of time you have to travel to wilderness, especially given the epic traffic jams that takes hours just to get out of the city. The GTA is almost like the Netherlands, minus the efficient flight and rail networks to get out of town.

A lot of immigrants are also disappointed by the flat and unimpressive topography of Southern Ontario in general, and it's common to hear that they can find much better hiking back in the old country. Hence the disinterest to discover Ontario, since it's not particularly appealing.

Really? It used to be pretty uncommon to see immigrants camping or hiking in remote areas around 25 years ago. Today, we get many immigrants from the GTA and elsewhere who drive up to my area for provincial parks and hiking trails. It really doesn't take very long to get to the Canadian Shield from the GTA with spectacular scenery. And if you want more remote then it's longer but what's a 5-8 hour drive if you're going to spend a week somewhere?

I camped at Pukaskwa National Park on Lake Superior a few years ago when the pandemic was happening that there were quite a few families originally from India who drove up from the GTA and absolutely loved the scenery and wilderness.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by Loco101

I really haven't heard about francophones being upset about the quality of French of Justin Trudeau. Maybe it happens from some intellectuals who like to nitpick but JT knows the proper words and terms to use and has won in Quebec riding where about half of his constituents have French at their mother-tongue. The average Quebecer does not speak as well or as formally as JT.

I have to correct your information about Justin Trudeau. He was born and raised as a child in Ottawa. His Mother Margaret is anglophone, does not speak French very well and is originally from BC. JT actually didn't speak French very well as a young child as he spent much more time with his Mother (his Father was PM) and his Father Pierre put him in a private high school in Montreal so that he would learn it better which he did.

JT is just as "Québécois" as someone such as Acajack if we want to be picky. To me it just means someone who is a resident of Quebec. I know that a number francophone Quebecers use it in the cultural and linguistic aspects as well so that's what I'm referring to when comparing with Acajack.

My French is pretty good that I often get mistaken for an Anglo-Quebecer when travelling throughout Quebec. I've had a few experiences where people thought my French wasn't up to par as they assumed that I lived in Quebec but when I told them that I live in Northeastern Ontario they apologized and said that they couldn't believe an anglophone from Ontario could speak French that well.

Perhaps “upset” is not the right term but Trudeau’s French is definitely used as political and cultural fodder against him. There is a weekly political satire show on Radio-Canada where an imitator plays Trudeau and makes very obvious mistakes in French.

As I mentioned this is bound to happen to you if you are going to finger-point Quebec about Bill 21 being racist or being mean to little old anglos, making it part of your political bread and butter.

Which is something that the Maritime-born and raised Acajack does not do, even if I am not a public figure.

Plus my French and my accent are better than his.

[YOWetal]

Originally Posted by Loco101

Really? It used to be pretty uncommon to see immigrants camping or hiking in remote areas around 25 years ago. Today, we get many immigrants from the GTA and elsewhere who drive up to my area for provincial parks and hiking trails. It really doesn't take very long to get to the Canadian Shield from the GTA with spectacular scenery. And if you want more remote then it's longer but what's a 5-8 hour drive if you're going to spend a week somewhere?

I camped at Pukaskwa National Park on Lake Superior a few years ago when the pandemic was happening that there were quite a few families originally from India who drove up from the GTA and absolutely loved the scenery and wilderness.

It's certainly something that lags overall immigration levels. Going to a provincial park is like going back in time 40 years or going to a small town. It's very white. South Asians (by appearance) do seem to be the one group you see. Hard to say how long they are in Canada but second generation Indians are very assimilated. Hockey fans etc.

[Nashe]

I'd hazard to guess a lot of that might come from the reasons people moved to Canada in the first place... I know a bunch of Western European immigrants were keen on enjoying nature and getting their own homestead started. The latest waves (from all over) are just looking to have careers and safe places for their families. It'll take them longer to "get to" the nature aspects of Canada, but they will, in time.

[YOWetal]

Originally Posted by Nashe

I'd hazard to guess a lot of that might come from the reasons people moved to Canada in the first place... I know a bunch of Western European immigrants were keen on enjoying nature and getting their own homestead started. The latest waves (from all over) are just looking to have careers and safe places for their families. It'll take them longer to "get to" the nature aspects of Canada, but they will, in time.

I don't mean to be too harsh but I think this view, which is widespread, is exactly the problem with our immigration system and is leading us off a cliff. I certainly don't think camping and watching hockey are essential but the idea the starting culture isn't related to the ability to integrate seems dubious. Chinese Canadians aren't big campers even in the 4th generation. They are well integrated in other more important ways but the point is culture matters. Some things can change but Western Europeans have a culture of respect for nature and escape from the city. Russians have a natural affinity for hockey. These statements are not controversial. But some cultures have an affinity for violent protest others have an affinity for entrepreneurship. Quebec has tended to focus on French in their immigration policy which is important but we see in Bill 21 that other issues are also important to the integration into Quebec culture.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by YOWetal

It's certainly something that lags overall immigration levels. Going to a provincial park is like going back in time 40 years or going to a small town. It's very white. South Asians (by appearance) do seem to be the one group you see. Hard to say how long they are in Canada but second generation Indians are very assimilated. Hockey fans etc.

The pre-2000s Indo-Canadians who were raised in Canada are indeed very assimilated. I grew up with many of them in my entourage in my youth in Ontario.

I think it's too early to say whether the current crop of Indo-Canadians will assimilate as seamlessly. Things are different today for a number of reasons.

Certainly, young Arab-Canadians (I had even more of them around me) today are considerebly less seamlessly assimilated that the ones from a couple of generations ago. And it's not just a question of time. I have pretty good points of comparison for this from when I was a teen and young adult, and now with my kids and their friends (a diverse group of young adults).

Not saying it's good or bad. Just an observable fact.

[New Brisavoine]

Originally Posted by Nashe

The latest waves (from all over) are just looking to have careers and safe places for their families.

More like "they wanted to go to the US, but the US didn't let them in." If we're being honest.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by Loco101

It seems to be an Acadian thing from my observations. I just look up "Leblanc" and "LeBlanc" obituaries in Timmins and almost all of them are "Leblanc" but we do have "LeBlanc" families and most of them have Acadian roots and many were or their parents were originally from New Brunswick.

The French right wing leader Jean-Marie Le Pen seems to be an exception to the French rule of not capitalizing in the middle of surnames.

Though I am sure New Brisavoine will have a savant explanation for this. Maybe it's the space between "Le" and "Pen" that makes it different.

(We do have some people here in Canada who have a space between "Le" or "La" and the rest of their surname.)

[kwoldtimer]

Originally Posted by Acajack

The pre-2000s Indo-Canadians who were raised in Canada are indeed very assimilated. I grew up with many of them in my entourage in my youth in Ontario.

I think it's too early to say whether the current crop of Indo-Canadians will assimilate as seamlessly. Things are different today for a number of reasons.

Certainly, young Arab-Canadians (I had even more of them around me) today are considerebly less seamlessly assimilated that the ones from a couple of generations ago. And it's not just a question of time. I have pretty good points of comparison for this from when I was a teen and young adult, and now with my kids and their friends (a diverse group of young adults).

Not saying it's good or bad. Just an observable fact.

The young, professional members of the current crop that I've met are arriving already assimilated. Still Indian, but totally comfortable in Canadian society.