Quebec, the French Language, and Quebecois Identity

[Acajack]

Quebecers are also the happiest Canadians by a fairly large margin.

Net-Happiness - "Generally, how would you say things are these days in your life - Would you say you are happy or not happy?"

All: +26%

QC: +50%
MB: +32%
ATL: +26%
BC: +23%
AB: +22%
ON: +13%
SK: +7%

https://x.com/CanadianPolling/status/1876047912028762484

[New Brisavoine]

Originally Posted by Acajack

Quebecers are also the happiest Canadians by a fairly large margin.

Yeah, but happiness is a fuzzy concept, hard to measure and easy to discard (think of Bhutan's Gross National Happiness). GDP per capita is more tangible, and speaks more to people.

I can see this figure changing the dynamic of the relationship between Québec and ROC. It's a historical change really when you think about it. Now if the Québec authorities were clever, they would push Statcan to measure purchasing power across Canada, and publish provincial GDP per capita at PPP values (as Eurostat is doing for European countries). That would definitely change the image of Québec in Canada.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by kwoldtimer

Why do you consider him Francophone?

Yeah, he is at least nominally francophone.

I think there is an impression that with the huge demographic changes in Canada, even Prime Ministers who are francophone to the degree that Justin Trudeau is, are going to become less and likely in the future.

Personally I am not 100% sure of that, as francophone Canadians are very embedded in Canadian affairs and quite savvy players of the game.

It could very well be that in a Canada where francophones are only 15% of the population that they will retain a highly disproportionate role in governing the country.

You see this in a number of other diverse countries where group X traditionally dominates the economy, group Y dominates the government, group Z dominates culture and education, etc.

A group doesn't necessarily have to be a majority (or even close to a majority) in order to exercise outsized influence in a sector. It just has to have competence, gravitas and (usually) history.

Of course, all of this is just a hypothesis. I am not sure if ROCers (especially in the West) would happily accept this situation in the future.

[New Brisavoine]

Originally Posted by kwoldtimer

Why do you consider him Francophone?

Francophone:

• Video Link

Anglophone:

• Video Link

It's like the difference between an elk and a moose really. Easy to tell (unless you're a Brit confused about what an elk is ).

[ToxiK]

Originally Posted by New Brisavoine

Yeah, but happiness is a fuzzy concept, hard to measure and easy to discard (think of Bhutan's Gross National Happiness). GDP per capita is more tangible, and speaks more to people.

I can see this figure changing the dynamic of the relationship between Québec and ROC. It's a historical change really when you think about it. Now if the Québec authorities were clever, they would push Statcan to measure purchasing power across Canada, and publish provincial GDP per capita at PPP values (as Eurostat is doing for European countries). That would definitely change the image of Québec in Canada.

Canada's ego would not be able to survive that...

[YOWetal]

Originally Posted by New Brisavoine

Other (shocking) news of the day (for some), in Le Devoir: the GDP per capita of Québec is now higher than Ontario's! Québec passed Ontario 4 years ago. In 2023, Québec's GDP per capita was 2.4% higher than Ontario's.

https://www.ledevoir.com/economie/829570/finir-retard-economique-ontario?

Interesting. Not sure about the PP calculation given we are in one country that seems less relevant. But they are also closing in on nominal GDP per capita with the huge surge in population in Ontario.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by New Brisavoine

It's like the difference between an elk and a moose really. Easy to tell (unless you're a Brit confused about what an elk is ).

What about a male elk vs a female elk?

[New Brisavoine]

Originally Posted by Acajack

Yeah, he is at least nominally francophone.

I think there is an impression that with the huge demographic changes in Canada, even Prime Ministers who a francophone to the degree that Justin Trudeau is, are going to become less and likely in the future.

Personally I am not 100% sure of that, as francophone Canadians are very embedded in Canadian affairs and quite savvy players of the game.

It could very well be that in a Canada where francophones are only 15% of the population that they will retain a highly disproportionate role in governing the country.

You see this in a number of other diverse countries where group X traditionally dominates the economy, group Y dominates the government, group Z dominates culture and education, etc.

A group doesn't necessarily have to be a majority (or even close to a majority) in order to exercise outsized influence in a sector. It just has to have competence, gravitas and (usually) history.

Of course, all of this is just a hypothesis. I am not sure if ROCers (especially in the West) would happily accept this situation in the future.

On the one hand, the Francophones have always had a disproportionate presence in the (Canadian) prime-ministership (or however you call it), because the Anglophones have tried to appease/include the Francophones to keep the country united (you see the same in Belgium where the Francophones have accepted a disproportionate share of Flemish primer ministers since the 1960s to appease the Flemings and keep the country united), but on the other hand, there doesn't seem to be anyone on the horizon in Francophone Canada who could possibly be prime minister in the foreseeable future... Or do you see anyone?

And if the PLQ collapses, this is basically the reservoir of Francophone Canadian prime ministers that is gone. (as I suppose no one seriously imagine a PQ, QS, CAQ prime minister of Canada, and the Conservatives are extremely marginal in Québec).

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by ToxiK

Canada's ego would not be able to survive that...

I have noted before on here that the unemployment rate was always the main indicator of a province or city's economic health in Canada, but when Quebec and Montreal passed under the Canadian, Ontario and Toronto averages a couple of years ago, all of a sudden many people started questioning its relevance and reliability.

[New Brisavoine]

Originally Posted by Acajack

What about a male elk vs a female elk?

That's also easy to tell apart. Male moose vs female moose would be harder as far as I'm concerned.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by New Brisavoine

On the one hand, the Francophones have always had a disproportionate presence in the (Canadian) prime-ministership (or however you call it), because the Anglophones have tried to appease/include the Francophones to keep the country united (you see the same in Belgium where the Francophones have accepted a disproportionate share of Flemish primer ministers since the 1960s to appease the Flemings and keep the country united), but on the other hand, there doesn't seem to be anyone on the horizon in Francophone Canada who could possibly be prime minister in the foreseeable future... Or do you see anyone?

And if the PLQ collapses, this is basically the reservoir of Francophone Canadian prime ministers that is gone.

Dominic LeBlanc is probably one of the front-runners to replace Justin Trudeau. But if he becomes Prime Minister he will not last longer than the autumn of 2025.

He is Acadien not Québécois, and probably about as francophone as Justin Trudeau is: anglophone mother, grew up with both languages, probably slightly more at ease in English, but married a woman who is more francophone than him.

I am pretty confident that French was more spoken than English around the family dinner table than English when Justin Trudeau was still with Sophie Grégoire.

This reminds me how I like to troll Belgians and ask them what language the King speaks with his family. They say "both". When having dinner? Both. When saying good night to his kids, is it "bonne nuit" or "goedenacht"? Both, they say.

[New Brisavoine]

Originally Posted by YOWetal

Interesting. Not sure about the PP calculation given we are in one country that seems less relevant.

It's quite relevant in the sense that people in Québec spend 95%+ of their lives in Québec, and people from the ROC 95%+ of their lives in the ROC. The only place where it wouldn't be relevant is Gatineau really, but then just because PPP GDP is not relevant in the French suburbs of Geneva doesn't mean PPP GDP of France is not relevant when comparing with Switzerland.

[New Brisavoine]

Originally Posted by Acajack

I have noted before on here that the unemployment rate was always the main indicator of a province or city's economic health in Canada, but when Quebec and Montreal passed under the Canadian, Ontario and Toronto averages a couple of years ago, all of a sudden many people started questioning its relevance and reliability.

Could it be that being economically superior to "the French" is an essential part of Anglo-Canada's self-image?

[New Brisavoine]

Originally Posted by Acajack

Dominic LeBlanc is probably one of the front-runners to replace Justin Trudeau.

Dominic with a -c?

He sounds as French as president Eisenhower was German...

And please drop that capital B! It's ridiculous.

PS: Ok, so this is my assessment of his language skills. His French is ok (with a few mistakes here and there), but he's definitely far more at ease speaking fluent and fast English than speaking noticeably slower (and with a few mistakes here and there) French.

English:
• Video Link

French:
• Video Link

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by New Brisavoine

On the one hand, the Francophones have always had a disproportionate presence in the (Canadian) prime-ministership (or however you call it), because the Anglophones have tried to appease/include the Francophones to keep the country united (you see the same in Belgium where the Francophones have accepted a disproportionate share of Flemish primer ministers since the 1960s to appease the Flemings and keep the country united), but on the other hand, there doesn't seem to be anyone on the horizon in Francophone Canada who could possibly be prime minister in the foreseeable future... Or do you see anyone?

And if the PLQ collapses, this is basically the reservoir of Francophone Canadian prime ministers that is gone. (as I suppose no one seriously imagine a PQ, QS, CAQ prime minister of Canada, and the Conservatives are extremely marginal in Québec).

It's also the fact that there is a certain class of person that you find in Quebec (especially the Montreal area, but Brian Mulroney was a Quebec anglo from the "regions") that can connect with people across the country and bridge the language and cultural divide more than someone from Ontario or the West can.

I have always thought that an Acadien from the Maritimes could also be this person, but it's never happened. New Brunswick once had an Acadien Premier called Bernard Lord who could have been That Guy, but it never materialized.

You are correct that there doesn't appear to be much relève on the horizon for the Liberals among francophones.

It's also possible that Justin Trudeau will have killed the reputation of Quebec politicians in the ROC for quite some time and that prejudices against them will be stronger than ever now. Trudeau in the ROC is considered much more Québécois than he actually is, and part of the anger against him I see comes out as Quebec imposing its politics on the rest of the country. Which is not really the case for most issues but people will think what they want.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by New Brisavoine

Dominic with a -c?

We do those alternative spellings fairly commonly here (in Quebec, Acadia, French Ontario): Dominic, Érik, Stéphan (still ends in the "anne" sound), Rafaël, Nycole, etc.

I am not especially fond of that, and my kids have the most traditional first names with of course the classic spelling, and based on that could be straight out of Neuilly-sur-Seine.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by New Brisavoine

And please drop that capital B! It's ridiculous.

As I have mentioned before, for some reason Acadiens in the Maritimes do that. (I don't have a Le- or La- surname, so I've never had the dilemma.) It's almost a bit "Channel Island-ish" or Jersiais.

In Quebec they generally don't do that:

https://ca.linkedin.com/in/michel-leblanc-3899904

[ToxiK]

Originally Posted by Acajack

I have noted before on here that the unemployment rate was always the main indicator of a province or city's economic health in Canada, but when Quebec and Montreal passed under the Canadian, Ontario and Toronto averages a couple of years ago, all of a sudden many people started questioning its relevance and reliability.

That is probably just a silly coincidence...

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by New Brisavoine

PS: Ok, so this is my assessment of his language skills. His French is ok (with a few mistakes here and there), but he's definitely far more at ease speaking fluent and fast English than speaking noticeably slower (and with a few mistakes here and there) French.

English:
• Video Link

French:
• Video Link

Agreed. Though I find he is slightly better than Justin Trudeau in non-scripted French.

There is still a contrast between LeBlanc's more sedated, slow and cautious French and that of someone who is very quick on their feet and totally at ease in the language like the journalist who is interviewing him (Patrice Roy).

Politicians like LeBlanc and Trudeau are probably always a bit more stressed when speaking in French, moreso even than bilingual anglophones are. The bar of expectations is set higher for Liberals like LeBlanc and Trudeau, who are figureheads of the party of coast-to-coast bilingualism, and whose mantra is that everything is absolutely fantastic with respect to the status of the French language and francophones.

[New Brisavoine]

Originally Posted by Acajack

As I have mentioned before, for some reason Acadiens in the Maritimes do that. (I don't have a Le- or La- surname, so I've never had the dilemma.) It's almost a bit "Channel Island-ish" or Jersiais.

In Quebec they generally don't do that:

https://ca.linkedin.com/in/michel-leblanc-3899904

If he becomes prime minister, French journalists will have a hard time writing his name. I think many journalists will just write "Leblanc", as writing "LeBlanc" seems as weird as writing "CaNada".