Haifax-Dartmouth Bridge Commission

[Saul Goode]

Originally Posted by OldDartmouthMark

I thought “removing the tolls” meant removing the toll booths, but still collecting tolls through a different method, like license plate detection technology?

No.

Not sure how you missed the story (it got fairly big play during the election campaign), but Houston wants to eliminate tolls entirely and have the province take over the harbor bridges. Here's a direct quote from the premier:

“Paying tolls on the MacKay and Macdonald bridges is an idea that has long outlived its usefulness. It is unfair and it does not make sense...Forcing people to pay more just to get to and from work is not right. And toll collection not only clogs up bridge traffic, but it indirectly contributes to gridlock on other major roads as well.”

That last bit about toll collection contributing to gridlock is just pure fiction. Blockages are plainly not created by the toll booths, but at the street grid bottlenecks at either end of the bridges, which would/will continue to exist regardless of the existence of toll booths. The tolls are only trivial contributors to impairing traffic flow.

What makes the idea so profoundly dumb is the notion of turning maintenance of this truly critical infrastructure over to the province. The current model works. Provincial maintenance of roads and bridges clearly does not.

[Nouvellecosse]

Yes removing the toll is a bad idea. While I don't think there's anything unfair about the province funding a bridge since there is provincially funded infrastructure across the province including in many rural areas which get more percapita funding. But also since this is a revenue source that is optional (people can choose to take transit, walk, bike, or ride share to eliminate or reduce it) and is already in place so there's no fight to enact it like raising general taxes or starting a new tax or fee would have. And revenue for transportation is important.

[OldDartmouthMark]

Originally Posted by Saul Goode

No.

Not sure how you missed the story (it got fairly big play during the election campaign), but Houston wants to eliminate tolls entirely and have the province take over the harbor bridges. Here's a direct quote from the premier:

“Paying tolls on the MacKay and Macdonald bridges is an idea that has long outlived its usefulness. It is unfair and it does not make sense...Forcing people to pay more just to get to and from work is not right. And toll collection not only clogs up bridge traffic, but it indirectly contributes to gridlock on other major roads as well.”

That last bit about toll collection contributing to gridlock is just pure fiction. Blockages are plainly not created by the toll booths, but at the street grid bottlenecks at either end of the bridges, which would/will continue to exist regardless of the existence of toll booths. The tolls are only trivial contributors to impairing traffic flow.

What makes the idea so profoundly dumb is the notion of turning maintenance of this truly critical infrastructure over to the province. The current model works. Provincial maintenance of roads and bridges clearly does not.

Thanks, and sorry about the misinformation. I suppose I have turned my focus away from politics and general sources of negativity recently, which includes SSP for the most part, with a few lookyloos at stuff that genuinely interests me, like the 107… because I have been looking forward to it for… oh… 30 years.

Whatever they want to do with the bridges, or transit, or continuing to encourage overpopulation of NS… have at it. Arguing about it is not worth the hit on my peace of mind, nor is keeping track of who said what and deciding whether I should respond or let it ride. Letting it ride is looking better every day (the half-assxedes of the world breathe a sigh of relief… 😅)…

Happy New Year to you and all the other great posters on SSP. I may or may not see much of you in 2025, but I’ll always be in the background… lurking… lol.

[eastcoastal]

Originally Posted by OldDartmouthMark

I thought “removing the tolls” meant removing the toll booths, but still collecting tolls through a different method, like license plate detection technology? That doesn’t sound like a stupendously bad idea to me. It sounds like improved traffic flow while seamlessly collectiing tolls without the need of managing transponder allocation, and no need for the motorist to keep track of a macpass account or keep emergency change in their vehicle…

This is not what the Conservatives meant... they meant stop charging to cross the bridge and instead pay for maintenance, operations, and replacements via general tax revenue.

[ns_kid]

Agreed that Houston's promise to eliminate toll payment (and, presumably, HHB itself) was a blatant bit of electioneering, with no credible policy behind it. One hopes it will die a natural and quiet death (much like the Liberals' promise to deregulate gas prices in their first term) but I never underestimate the instinct of politicians to put their self-interest ahead of the public good.

What is maddening -- and, frankly, incomprehensible -- to me is the bridge commission's failure to proceed with electronic tolling, something they proposed at least seven years ago. AECON delivered its plans for e-tolling back in 2019, and the last public word from the bridge commission that I recall came early in the pandemic, when they said the decline in traffic would delay implementation. Moving forward requires approval of the URB but, as far as I know, the commission has never made an application.

To Mr. Goode's point, removing the toll plazas should go a long way to eliminating bottlenecks, particularly on the MacKay. The AECON renderings proposed (from Dartmouth) a straight two-lane shot onto the MacKay from the 111 (with a merge from Princess Margaret Blvd.) with no lane reduction. On the Macdonald there would also be two lanes from Nantucket, with the left turn from Wyse northbound and merge from Wyse southbound remaining. Of course the lane reduction will still occur from noon to midnight when Halifax-bound traffic is reduced to one lane.

A responsible government would be moving quickly to move HHB into the 21st century by eliminating the toll plazas (not the tolls). But I expect the main obstacles are the cost of the infrastructure (estimated by HHB at over $23 million in 2019), the impact on jobs, and the inevitable opposition from those who don't want their licence plates read and credit cards on file.

[Saul Goode]

Originally Posted by ns_kid

Agreed that Houston's promise to eliminate toll payment (and, presumably, HHB itself) was a blatant bit of electioneering, with no credible policy behind it. One hopes it will die a natural and quiet death (much like the Liberals' promise to deregulate gas prices in their first term) but I never underestimate the instinct of politicians to put their self-interest ahead of the public good.

Off topic, but since you mentioned it: I would've been quite pleased had McNeil followed through on that promise to do away with gasoline price regulation.

[ns_kid]

Originally Posted by Saul Goode

Off topic, but since you mentioned it: I would've been quite pleased had McNeil followed through on that promise to do away with gasoline price regulation.

You’re not alone of course. I was close to that file and can attest that the premier was committed to deregulation and put it at the top of the minister’s mandate letter. But the public service and the industry (with the exception of one independent) made a convincing case that regulation was doing exactly what it was intended to do (providing price stability and protecting rural retailers). That, combined with public opinion, doomed deregulation. But it was an embarrassment to the minister and some staff paid a steep price.

To bring it back on topic, it’s likely there is now a similar tug of war between the political class and staff on the merits and impacts of axing the toll.

[OldDartmouthMark]

Originally Posted by eastcoastal

This is not what the Conservatives meant... they meant stop charging to cross the bridge and instead pay for maintenance, operations, and replacements via general tax revenue.

Yeah, see my post above. I stopped paying close attention to politics, etc., and somehow this slipped by me. When I quickly checked good ol’ reliable SSP (i.e. this thread) to see if there had been any mention, there was none that I saw (apparently it wasn’t an important point to anybody then, but suddenly now it is). So I boobed up and thought we were still going to replace the toll booths with license plate readers, as are used elsewhere. Oops! So I’m falling on my sword and swearing not to involve myself in a discussion unless I’ve extensively researched it (or read a 2 minute news blurb about it).

Are we good?

Also, I don’t have strong feelings about moving it into the general tax base, as that’s what was done with Cobequid Pass and I don’t recall any protests or mass complaints about it. Nor has it crumbled to dust, last time I checked. My travel routes no longer include the bridges, so I rarely use them, but I don’t mind paying for something that other people benefit from, as I believe that’s how taxation works. I’m already helping to pay for other infrastructure that I don’t use, but see that as superior to having a plethora of toll booths on every road or cycle lane in the province.

[Saul Goode]

Originally Posted by OldDartmouthMark

I don’t have strong feelings about moving it into the general tax base, as that’s what was done with Cobequid Pass and I don’t recall any protests or mass complaints about it. Nor has it crumbled to dust, last time I checked.

Ah, but a lot of provincially-maintained road and bridge infrastructure has crumbled to dust, and that's the problem with this plan. Surely you see it when you drive around the province, and see the too-frequent stories about years-long road closures as long-neglected bridges have to be replaced. Our roads and bridges generally are in lousy shape. If you haven't seen it, you needn't take my word for it. Statistics Canada confirms it - see this recent CBC story:

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/nova-scot...Nova,%22fair%22%20condition%20or%20worse.

The Halifax Harbor bridges are absolutely vital to our economy and very heavily used, and need constant meticulous (and expensive) care, which the current toll model has made possible. They're well taken care of and the funding of their care isn't subject to the whims of politicians which change with every election. It would be profoundly dumb to mess with that stability for the sake of an ill-conceived election bribe which will have no material effect on improving traffic flow, which was the premier's bogus rationale. If it ain't broke, don't pretend to "fix" it.

I wouldn't trust the provincial government to take proper care of a bucket of rocks, let alone a couple of multi-billion dollar bridges.

[OldDartmouthMark]

Originally Posted by Saul Goode

Ah, but a lot of provincially-maintained road and bridge infrastructure has crumbled to dust, and that's the problem with this plan. Surely you see it when you drive around the province, and see the too-frequent stories about years-long road closures as long-neglected bridges have to be replaced. Our roads and bridges generally are in lousy shape. If you haven't seen it, you needn't take my word for it. Statistics Canada confirms it - see this recent CBC story:

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/nova-scot...Nova,%22fair%22%20condition%20or%20worse.

The Halifax Harbor bridges are absolutely vital to our economy and very heavily used, and need constant meticulous (and expensive) care, which the current toll model has made possible. They're well taken care of and the funding of their care isn't subject to the whims of politicians which change with every election. It would be profoundly dumb to mess with that stability for the sake of an ill-conceived election bribe which will have no material effect on improving traffic flow, which was the premier's bogus rationale. If it ain't broke, don't pretend to "fix" it.

I wouldn't trust the provincial government to take proper care of a bucket of rocks, let alone a couple of multi-billion dollar bridges.

Fair points, and while any crumbling infrastructure should be considered unacceptable (note that the lack of maintenance that led to these failures would have pre-dated the Houston government, if your angle happens to be political), one would have to assume that these structures would have a higher priority than some rural bridge that serves a small community (still unacceptable, of course for any bridge to not have proper maintenance or a reasonable replacement strategy but high-usage structures like the Halifax bridges will always be the highest priority).

Anyhow, I don't have the time or energy to invest into a debate about this. I'll defer to your expertise on the subject, but really it sounds like it's an idea that won't come to light for a long time, if at all, given the amount of work it would take to switch from the HDBC to provincial dept of transportation responsibility.

Whatever happens will get worked out, our roads 🞵🞵🞵🞵 and have always sucked. My travels to other parts of Canada have never really convinced me that the other provinces are head and shoulders above NS's , but YMMV. It seems to be case by case, almost by municipality, but on average not overly impressive (note: we have winter, which plays havoc on all infrastructure due to the simple fact that the volume of water expands when it freezes, and NaCl accelerates the corrosion process on ferrous materials). The CBC article states that the data is self reported by provincial governments and that the standards may vary from province to province, so whatever that means on an objective scale, I'm not sure. I'm not sure that I would place a whole lot of confidence on some random Statistics Canada data, as it's federally run which in my mind places it near the bottom of the scale of reliable data.

Most of us probably recall hearing about this, for example, which is a catastrophic failure that should never be even close to occurring, and wasn't in NS, but in a province with relatively huge funding and presumably superior maintenance programs.

I don't know much about the efficiency of the HDBC to know that it 'ain't broke', but they seem to get stuff done, but are you sure that they would be dissolved in this scheme? If I were Houston, and wanted to actually do this, it would seem more like a simple budgetary issue. Like, transfer toll revenue to a newly-created HDBC budget coming from the total provincial tax revenue bucket (vs a crown corporation), likewise budget construction for removing toll booths (and thus remove cost involved in managing the entire toll system), and off you go. Or maybe leave it as is until the MacKay is replaced and do it all at once. Regardless, in this imaginary world, HDBC still manages bridge maintenance, and creates its own budget to be funded by the province, and life goes on. However, I'm not a finance guy, a legal guy, a business guy, and definitely not a political guy... so maybe none of this makes sense to those who have actually worked in this nonsensical environment, but it just wouldn't seem to make a lot of sense to reinvent the wheel on this. Just do some budget shuffling and call it a day.

Anyhow, enough rambling. I am dangerously close to reaching the limitations of my interest on the subject, and have discussed it far more than I had intended. I am hoping my future self will have the wisdom to avoid such exchanges, but he probably won't...

[q12]

There are lots of similar bridges in Canada that are maintained properly without tolls.

Examples:

Lions Gate Bridge in Vancouver

The toll remained on the Lions Gate Bridge until April 1, 1963, as part of the provincial government's toll removal scheme for several bridges. The toll plaza at the north end of the bridge was later demolished.

Seal Island Bridge in Cape Breton


The Province just invested an additional $45 million over the next four years to continue the Seal Island bridge's rehabilitation.
https://news.novascotia.ca/en/2024/10/23...e-rehabilitation-work-seal-island-bridge

The Halifax Harbour Bridge maintenance staff will just be paid by tax dollars instead of the tolls.

If the tolls are so great why haven't they used that toll revenue to replace the ancient toll booths that cause all the accidents and congestion?



They could have easily replaced the original toll structures on the Mackay 10 or 20 years ago like other parts of the world.

[Saul Goode]

Originally Posted by OldDartmouthMark

(note that the lack of maintenance that led to these failures would have pre-dated the Houston government, if your angle happens to be political)

Just for the record, my angle is anything but political. I have no affiliation or connection of any sort with any party, never have had, and never want to. I find them repulsive.

Anyway, I appreciate your position - and your fatigue and disinterest with the topic. Enough said.

[Keith P.]

Aaaaaannnnd, despite vows to the contrary just a day or two ago, he's baaaaack!!!

Originally Posted by OldDartmouthMark

{major snippage}

Anyhow, I don't have the time or energy to invest into a debate about this

{long-winded contribution to the debate snipped}

Originally Posted by OldDartmouthMark

Anyhow, enough rambling. I am dangerously close to reaching the limitations of my interest on the subject, and have discussed it far more than I had intended. I am hoping my future self will have the wisdom to avoid such exchanges, but he probably won't...

Another vow... I guess it's true how some cats can't change their stripes...

[Saul Goode]

Originally Posted by q12

There are lots of similar bridges in Canada that are maintained properly without tolls.

Of course there are - almost all of them. I've never suggested that model can't work; just that NS's pitiful record of road infrastructure maintenance gives me little reason to think it's likely to work well here.

If the tolls are so great why haven't they used that toll revenue to replace the ancient toll booths that cause all the accidents and congestion?

Again, I've never suggested (nor do I believe) that tolls are "great" or that HHB is ideal, just that the evidence suggests that the alternative is very unlikely to be better.[/QUOTE]

[q12]

Google maps traffic data shows that the toll booths (especially the old style we have) induce traffic congestion all by themselves.

Google maps data will show you the typical traffic it sees at any given time:

Here is a typical Thursday at 8:15am without an accident or incident showing traffic congestion only at the tolls (Halifax bound):

[Saul Goode]

Originally Posted by q12

Google maps traffic data shows that the toll booths (especially the old style we have) induce traffic congestion all by themselves.

Great. But has nothing to do with my point.

[OldDartmouthMark]

Originally Posted by Keith P.

Aaaaaannnnd, despite vows to the contrary just a day or two ago, he's baaaaack!!!




{long-winded contribution to the debate snipped}



Another vow... I guess it's true how some cats can't change their stripes...

Sorry to disappoint, but there were no vows involved, just statements of how I was feeling about it in the moment. If you don’t like what I write, don’t read it.

Your bluster seems odd, coming from the king of long-winded opinionated rants. Since you regularly feel entitled to post in such a way, then there’s no place in the wide world of sports where your opinion and criticism of me will ever be taken even the slightest bit seriously. Don’t waste your time, as I’m sure there’s a bike lane somewhere for you to rant about that will give you a more satisfying reaction than mine… You’re a hoot, Keith!

[eastcoastal]

Originally Posted by OldDartmouthMark

Yeah, see my post above. I stopped paying close attention to politics, etc., and somehow this slipped by me...:

Hit reply before checking if anyone else had followed-up. Sorrry... I didn't add much to the conversation.

Originally Posted by OldDartmouthMark

... Also, I don’t have strong feelings about moving it into the general tax base, as that’s what was done with Cobequid Pass and I don’t recall any protests or mass complaints about it. Nor has it crumbled to dust, last time I checked...

I think they're different. Cobequid Pass is significant transportation corridor for goods between NS and elsewhere - I think it's more siginficant economically for the province than the bridges, which I tend to view as conveniences for those living in/visiting Halifax-Dartmouth (or not convenience in your case). High-sided vehicles aren't supposed to use the bridges, and we have all seen the number of vehicles that can't even get through the booths, so major goods have to go around the harbour if they're on trucks and not rail. I can see the economic reason for general tax base to pay for Cobequid Pass and other major routes that serve to move goods/trade throughout the region and to the rest of Canada. I just haven't been convinced that the same argument exists for the bridges.

For what it's worth, the argument the Conservatives made was that it would reduce commute times... which, LOL, I doubt. When asked by the press about who had provided expert insight into the benefits, the Premier was not able to answer despite saying he'd consulted with some... since then, any traffic engineer I've seen/heard interviewed about it says that removing the tolls will not improve commute times (limiting factors being the street networks landside - particularly for the MacDonald) and may even increase congestion (with the tolls serving as a way to reorganize multiple lanes into 1 or 2 in an organic way).

[eastcoastal]

Originally Posted by q12

Google maps traffic data shows that the toll booths (especially the old style we have) induce traffic congestion all by themselves.

Google maps data will show you the typical traffic it sees at any given time:

Here is a typical Thursday at 8:15am without an accident or incident showing traffic congestion only at the tolls (Halifax bound):

Just because there is congestion AT the tolls, doesn't mean that they caused it or that it would be better if they weren't there.

[q12]

Originally Posted by Saul Goode

Great. But has nothing to do with my point.

I'm only trying to point out the fact that if they want to keep collecting tolls, there has long been better ways to do that.

Traffic congestion at the toll booths has always been a problem that could be fixed by express electronic tolls that remove the booths completely and allow for traffic to flow at highway speeds.

Collect the tolls or don't. Just remove the damn toll booths.