Quebec, the French Language, and Quebecois Identity

[New Brisavoine]

Originally Posted by MonctonRad

France's victory? You seem to be forgetting the contributions from the UK, the Commonwealth, the USA and Russia.

Ah ah, I knew you were going to say that.

I often like to remind people of France's victory in WW1, because they have a certain tendency to forget it (especially in the Anglophone world). Of course these world wars were fought by coalitions, and there is not one single victor, but in WW1 it was France that played a disproportionate role in the victory, both in terms of total number of men, dead soldiers, territory where the fighting took place, amount of destruction, and often forgotten: sheer economic war effort. In WW1 it was France that was the 'arsenal of democracies'. For instance the French almost entirely furnished the US Army with their equipment (both guns, tanks, and aircraft). This has been obscured by what happened in WW2.

But more importantly and to the point, when all those European monarchies were toppled in 1918 it was seen by the European contemporaries as a victory of Republican France, and in particular the arch-republican premier Clemenceau, who was (falsely) accused of being responsible for the destruction of the Austro-Hungarian Empire in particular (this was greatly reproached to him in the 1930s, but the truth is the empire collapsed for internal reasons).

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by hipster duck

A British politician would never call any foreign city "a British city" or "dear to the hearts of British people". It sounds both very patronizing and also very twee in English.

Do the French really feel a kindred spirit to New Orleans, a city they sold over 200 years ago and where French is more or less extinct?

.

It’s called “cultural differences”.

[P'tit Renard]

Originally Posted by theman23

Judging by the unemployment rates in the two cities, this is probably not true anymore.

As far as food goes, that seems an odd take unless you're a domiciled middle aged person who eats most of his meal at the office desk or the dinner table. The food scene in Vancouver and Toronto are probably more vibrant than Montreal at this point. It makes sense since there's really nothing social to do in Toronto for a lot of young people other than go out and eat food together.

In my experience, Montreal's food scene is as vibrant (if not more) than Toronto. Montreal's scene has less chains (at least on the island) and has unique quirks like apportez votre vin that encourages Montrealais to eat out during the weekdays. There is less of a peak crush on Fri-Sat than Toronto on the other hand, though securing a reso at the most popular restaurants is just as challenging as Toronto.

Central Toronto's food scene is usually packed between Thurs and Sat. Sunday to Wed is generally pretty quiet and not difficult at all to secure a table at a popular restaurant. It's really only in Markham, NYCC and Vaughan that I've seen a constant stream of Italians, Chinese and Koreans eat out during the weekdays.

Vancouver's food scene I find is even more bifurcated, with east Asian restaurants (especially Richmond) being packed all the time, but other restaurants are really only busy during Fri-Sat. Commercial Drive isn't that hopping on a weekday, and it's relatively easy to get a table even on a Thursday (which is surprising for someone coming from Toronto).

[P'tit Renard]

Originally Posted by New Brisavoine

I've heard that before regarding Paris vs London (British forumers claiming that the food scene in London is more 'vibrant' and diverse). Problem is: the food scene (i.e. restaurants) don't tell you much about the place or importance of food in a society, since people eat at home most of the time, and most of the food we eat is the one we buy at the suppermarket/food stores and prepare/cook at home.

IMO London probably has the most overrated, overhyped food scene in the Western world. There's many things I love about London like it's unbeatable comedy, museums and galleries, nightlife and the West End, but the food has always been dissapointing and too expensive for what it offers. Paris by far beats London in terms of quality, refinement and taste, and Paris is the more satisfying city for foodies.

Pound for pound, Toronto's vibrant/diverse food scene is notably better than London's. Sydney, Montreal, Los Angeles and Vancouver's food scene I would also rate above London's.

[kwoldtimer]

Originally Posted by New Brisavoine

And Spanish. The Bourbon still gloriously reign over Spain.



And to be honest, I find him much more dignified than our president. His Christmas wishes every year are far more stately and dignified than the New Year's wishes of the French president.

Less well known, the Grand Duke of Luxembourg is also a Bourbon monarch. Like the king of Spain, he's a direct male descendant of Louis XIV. So although we've abolished the French monarchy, we still have 2 members of our Bourbon dynasty ruling European countries. Not bad I'd say.

Felipe doesn't rule, he reigns.

[theman23]

Originally Posted by P'tit Renard

In my experience, Montreal's food scene is as vibrant (if not more) than Toronto. Montreal's scene has less chains (at least on the island) and has unique quirks like apportez votre vin that encourages Montrealais to eat out during the weekdays. There is less of a peak crush on Fri-Sat than Toronto on the other hand, though securing a reso at the most popular restaurants is just as challenging as Toronto.

Central Toronto's food scene is usually packed between Thurs and Sat. Sunday to Wed is generally pretty quiet and not difficult at all to secure a table at a popular restaurant. It's really only in Markham, NYCC and Vaughan that I've seen a constant stream of Italians, Chinese and Koreans eat out during the weekdays.

Vancouver's food scene I find is even more bifurcated, with east Asian restaurants (especially Richmond) being packed all the time, but other restaurants are really only busy during Fri-Sat. Commercial Drive isn't that hopping on a weekday, and it's relatively easy to get a table even on a Thursday (which is surprising for someone coming from Toronto).

Is it "only Markham, NYCC, and Vaughan"? The Ridgeway plaza in Mississauga seemed to be pretty busy when I was there this past summer - enough that police were on hand for traffic control and busy restaurants had lineups on weekends (these aren't the types of places that take reservations), and restaurants seemed busy enough on weekdays. With the city growing as much as it has over the last 10 years, it's hard to imagine that the uptick in demand has only been in a few suburbs.

[New Brisavoine]

Originally Posted by P'tit Renard

IMO London probably has the most overrated, overhyped food scene in the Western world. There's many things I love about London like it's unbeatable comedy, museums and galleries, nightlife and the West End, but the food has always been dissapointing and too expensive for what it offers. Paris by far beats London in terms of quality, refinement and taste, and Paris is the more satisfying city for foodies.

Pound for pound, Toronto's vibrant/diverse food scene is notably better than London's. Sydney, Montreal, Los Angeles and Vancouver's food scene I would also rate above London's.

I more or less agree regarding London (I lived there actually, and was almost never eating out because it's too expensive), but Paris is going downhill unfortunately. It's becoming more and more expensive, like in London, with fewer and fewer good restaurants at a decent price (most often Asian restaurants, since French cuisine has become either too expensive, or crap if less than 50 euros).

Where Paris is ahead of London is in terms of the diversity of food stores. In London it's shocking how there are no butcheries and fishmongers left, no boulangeries, no cheese stores, etc, whereas in Paris you still have all of them in the residential areas outside of the most central touristy core (which has become a dead zone infested with Airbnbs and foreign speaking tourists). Everyday food in French supermarkets is also of better quality than in the UK. It's less true in Paris, because supermarkets in Paris are small and have less variety than the larger supermarkets in the rest of France, I often find the choice of food in Parisian supermarkets really subpar compared to the rest of France, but it's nonetheless better than in the London supermarkets where you shouldn't expect anything special beyond the most basic industrial food. Although one point where London supermarkets are better is they have more choice of international food, especially Indian microwave-ready food. Parisian supermarkets also have some microwave-ready Indian/Chinese/Arabic food, but the quality is awful (it's really not in the culture here).

So yes, Paris better than London foodwise overall, but still quite lacking. These days you'll have a much better deal in Italian and Spanish cities. Over there you can eat out at a cheap price, very good food (not the crap you'd have in Paris if it's cheap), they also serve late, and are friendlier. But French supermarkets are better than Spanish and Italian supermarkets in terms of food quality and diversity, so it really depends if you focus on eating out or eating at home. For a casual tourist, who will essentially eat out, it's definitely better in the Spanish and Italian cities than in Paris. But if you're LIVING there and eating at home most of the time, then Paris is better (although I must admit they have very nice fish markets in Spain, which we lack in Paris, our fishmongers have much less choice than at those fish markets in Spain, and it's more expensive, but I wonder when you live in Barcelona or Valencia do you really have time to go shop at those large central fish markets?).

[hipster duck]

Originally Posted by New Brisavoine

Paris is going downhill unfortunately. It's becoming more and more expensive, like in London, with fewer and fewer good restaurants at a decent price (most often Asian restaurants, since French cuisine has become either too expensive, or crap if less than 50 euros).

That sucks. What about the simple, everyday classics like a Jambon Beurre or Bistro fare? Are the good ones getting pricey too?

Everyday food in French supermarkets is also of better quality than in the UK. It's less true in Paris, because supermarkets in Paris are small and have less variety than the larger supermarkets in the rest of France, I often find the choice of food in Parisian supermarkets really subpar compared to the rest of France,

This is something that we on urbanist forums hate to admit, but easy motorway access for trucks to make deliveries really lowers the marginal cost of delivering fresh food. The best places to buy groceries are in nondescript suburbs, and the best places to eat affordably are too.

It was an architectural crime that Baltard's arcades at Les Halles were demolished, but having the great wholesale market in the heart of Paris was unsustainable. It was inevitable that they would have moved it to Rungis in the suburbs.

[New Brisavoine]

Originally Posted by hipster duck

That sucks. What about the simple, everyday classics like a Jambon Beurre

Jambon beurre was never a good option anyway. It was always the most simple and cheapest sandwich, really lacking in quality. I see less and less of them now that I think of it (it was never the thing I ordered, so I don't really pay attention to it, but now that you're talking of it, I think it's been a long time since I haven't seen any). Nowadays in the business areas the young Parisians are all into buying all those new exotic stuff seen on Tiktok and other international social media like 'poke bowls' and other similar stuff, which I find both overpriced and a bit of a fad (also all those green "juices" and smoothies). You see tons of these quickly appeared, quickly gone new food stores now in the business areas of Paris (all of them with fake English names full of "oo" and "ee" that make no sense in English but "sound" English). Jambon beurre seem to belong to the past.

In any case, if you're into jambon beurre I would rather recommend a hot dog. I know it may sound counterintuitive, because hot dog is not French, but the Frenchified version of hot dog (still) made in Parisian boulangeries is surprisingly pretty good, and much, much better than US hot dogs (basically a full length crusty baguette stuffed with Strasbourg sausages, real strong Dijon mustard and sometimes French béchamelle sauce too, and with gratinéed cheese on top ). All for the grand total of 4 to 6 euros depending on neighborhoods.

Originally Posted by hipster duck

or Bistro fare? Are the good ones getting pricey too?

Bistro fare has become expensive yeah. Last summer when my mom came for the Olympics I took her to a bistro in the 7th arrondissement that was recommended by a Parisian-born journalist I know. She said it was authentic bistro fare, and extremely decent price, and indeed the prices looked cheap on their menu when I checked online, and it indeed looked like a very popular place, but when we went there I was disappointed: the food was ok but nothing extraordinary (it's things we could have done at home really), and I found it expensive (like 25 euros per person, when I expected to pay no more than, say, 12 euros par person).

I know some (good) Asian restaurants in Paris where you can eat for just 12 euros. Good price/quality ratio is only to be found in Asian restaurants in Paris. This bistro place hasn't made me change my mind. So yes, they had some fun photos on the walls of all the celebrities who ate at their place, and the waiter and lady boss were both fun and nice (as in old bistro manners), but...

(now I have my sights, for an upcoming occasion in mid-January, on a new Yemeni restaurant near the Champs-Elysées which is surprisingly decent price-wise for the area and is supposed to be quite good an authentic... I'll let you know , you can even eat sitting on the floor like in Yemen I've heard, although that's not the reason why I wanna try it)

Originally Posted by hipster duck

It was an architectural crime that Baltard's arcades at Les Halles were demolished, but having the great wholesale market in the heart of Paris was unsustainable. It was inevitable that they would have moved it to Rungis in the suburbs.

They should at least have turned it (all of it or just a part of it) into some sort of upscale retail food market, as happened in many French cities. Lots of old wholesale food markets were reconverted in upscale retail food markets. In Lyon for example they have Les Halles Bocuse. In Cahors, if you ever find yourself in that most unknown area of France (only the Brits know about it), I really like their old covered wrought-iron market, which now has some very good food stores (and cheap compared to Paris!). They have one of the best breads I've ever had in my life. And also a local pastry I quite like, called 'pastis', which is extremely hard to find these days. And then of course fish, poultry and wild games, black truffles, etc. Yeah, it would really be great if we could still have the Halles Baltard in Paris offering the same. In Paris you can find that large assortment of upscale food assembled altogether in one place only in the gourmet departments of the great department stores, but it's not as large as some central covered market would have been, and it's also extortionately expensive (in fact you're more likely to meet tourists than French people in these, like at the gourmet department of the Galeries Lafayette, although I shop there from times to times because they have 2 or 3 things that are hard to find elsewhere and are of a good quality/price ratio, like some excellent chocolate with real candied orange rinds inside from the excellent chocolate house Weiss in Saint-Etienne, which is the best orange chocolate I've had so far).

France for you.

[P'tit Renard]

Originally Posted by New Brisavoine

So yes, Paris better than London foodwise overall, but still quite lacking. These days you'll have a much better deal in Italian and Spanish cities. Over there you can eat out at a cheap price, very good food (not the crap you'd have in Paris if it's cheap), they also serve late, and are friendlier. But French supermarkets are better than Spanish and Italian supermarkets in terms of food quality and diversity, so it really depends if you focus on eating out or eating at home. For a casual tourist, who will essentially eat out, it's definitely better in the Spanish and Italian cities than in Paris.

Agreed about Spanish cities, though my preference was Portuguese cities over Italian in terms of food. Even though Italian cuisine would be my favourite amongst the three.

But of course that's only Europe. In mine and SO's experience, Japan, Thailand and Taiwan by far have the world's best and most comprehensive food scenes, as well as fresher seafood and food quality.

But if you're LIVING there and eating at home most of the time, then Paris is better (although I must admit they have very nice fish markets in Spain, which we lack in Paris, our fishmongers have much less choice than at those fish markets in Spain, and it's more expensive, but I wonder when you live in Barcelona or Valencia do you really have time to go shop at those large central fish markets?).

When my SO lived in Tokyo, visits to the fish markets was a very regular routine, which reminded SO of the poissioneries that their family frequents at home in Quebec. So I would say an unequivocal yes if freshness and seafood matters to you. It's a very discerning taste.

[P'tit Renard]

Originally Posted by theman23

Is it "only Markham, NYCC, and Vaughan"? The Ridgeway plaza in Mississauga seemed to be pretty busy when I was there this past summer - enough that police were on hand for traffic control and busy restaurants had lineups on weekends (these aren't the types of places that take reservations), and restaurants seemed busy enough on weekdays. With the city growing as much as it has over the last 10 years, it's hard to imagine that the uptick in demand has only been in a few suburbs.

I can't speak to Ridgeway Plaza as I've never been there (is it a nondescript suburban strip malls like those lining Scarborough?), but the last couple business lunches I've done out in Mississauga (near QEW) and Oakville/Burlington, the resto strip malls were pretty quiet and none of the restos we patroned were particularly busy.

Which contrasts to say Dragon Legend buffet at Hwy 7 and Woodbine, which you have to make a reso in advance or you could be stuck waiting in line on a normal Tuesday afternoon!

[New Brisavoine]

Originally Posted by hipster duck

The best places to buy groceries are in nondescript suburbs, and the best places to eat affordably are too.

One thing I forgot to mention in my earlier post, where Paris is also superior to London food-wise, is Paris of course has some street marchés (producers' markets), each neighborhood has one, once or twice a week, in the morning. I forgot to mention that because I'm not a morning person so I almost never shop there, and also half of the farmers and artisans selling their produce there do not accept credit cards (!), so you have to carry lots of cash which gets on my nerves.

These markets have lots of variety of fruits and vegetables, like a real market in the provinces, and all sorts of fish, meat, prepared food, food being cooked in large pans, etc. The few times I've shopped there it was frankly quite good, better than at the supermarket, and also not too expensive, but you have to go before 11pm if you want to make sure to find all the best stuff, and you have to carry cash, and it's cold in winter, and too hot in summer. Old people in Paris love to shop at those marchés. In my neighborhood it's every Saturday and Wednesday (or Thursday?) morning. They had a temperature of only 32 degrees F last Saturday morning. Sorry, but no thanks.

London in my recollection has 0 street markets (I heard there is one international food market somewhere in Southwark near London Bridge, but it's just the one odd place for an entire metropolis, whereas in Paris literally each neighborhood has one on different days of the week, and they don't just sell cooked food as at that Southwark market, but above all fresh food of all sorts, pâtés from artisan charcutiers, cheese impossible to find in regular supermarkets, little fresh squids and shells on the fish stalls, etc).

[New Brisavoine]

Originally Posted by P'tit Renard

But of course that's only Europe. In mine and SO's experience, Japan, Thailand and Taiwan by far have the world's best and most comprehensive food scenes, as well as fresher seafood and food quality.

Well yeah, Thailand and Japan obviously. Although they are going to have less variety than our Western metropolises. It's going to be more "national food".

Taiwan I don't know... They have excellent food (and cheap!! and served all day even at 3am!), but "most comprehensive food scene" is not exactly how I would phrase it unless Taipei has changed a lot since I (briefly) lived there... In my recollection, all I could find was Chinese food (which is enough to fill an entire life anyway), and they also have a little bit of Japanese (or Japanese-Chinese fusion rather) food due to their colonial history. I do not recall any Western or non-Chinese restaurant or food stall. I agree that they have very fresh seafood though, as is typical in Eastern Asia. One girl I befriended took me to a seafood restaurant near the coast, it was spectacular: you get to pick the live crabs in the fish pond, and barely 8 minutes later it's in your plate all perfectly cooked and prepared. Can't be fresher!!

BUT... you can have the same in Valencia (it's on my to-do list ): at their central fish market you can buy a langouste (the thing in the pictures below, because I'm always uncertain how to translate it in English), which is the most expensive seafood there is, but at their central fish market it's the cheapest I've ever seen (a Mediterranean langouste you can buy for just 50 euros per kg, whereas in Paris it costs 200 euros per kg, and a langouste is going to weigh easily 1 kg). So you can buy a live langouste at their central fish market, and you bring it to one restaurant that is in front of the market, and they prepare and cook it for you (one fisherman gave me the tip). Definitely wanna do this next time I'm in Valencia.

[kwoldtimer]

Originally Posted by New Brisavoine

One thing I forgot to mention in my earlier post, where Paris is also superior to London food-wise, is Paris of course has some street marchés (producers' markets), each neighborhood has one, once or twice a week, in the morning. I forgot to mention that because I'm not a morning person so I almost never shop there, and also half of the farmers and artisans selling their produce there do not accept credit cards (!), so you have to carry lots of cash which gets on my nerves.

These markets have lots of variety of fruits and vegetables, like a real market in the provinces, and all sorts of fish, meat, prepared food, food being cooked in large pans, etc. The few times I've shopped there it was frankly quite good, better than at the supermarket, and also not too expensive, but you have to go before 11pm if you want to make sure to find all the best stuff, and you have to carry cash, and it's cold in winter, and too hot in summer. Old people in Paris love to shop at those marchés. In my neighborhood it's every Saturday and Wednesday (or Thursday?) morning. They had a temperature of only 32 degrees F last Saturday morning. Sorry, but no thanks.

London in my recollection has 0 street markets (I heard there is one international food market somewhere in Southwark near London Bridge, but it's just the one odd place for an entire metropolis, whereas in Paris literally each neighborhood has one on different days of the week, and they don't just sell cooked food as at that Southwark market, but above all fresh food of all sorts, pâtés from artisan charcutiers, cheese impossible to find in regular supermarkets, little fresh squids and shells on the fish stalls, etc).

Borough Market - it is fabulous, although VERY crowded, being in prime tourist territory. And lots of cheese, bread, neat, fish, fruit and veg, wine - not just prepared foods.
London has any number of farmers' markets - usually on Saturdays or Sundays.

[Kilgore Trout]

Originally Posted by New Brisavoine

London in my recollection has 0 street markets (I heard there is one international food market somewhere in Southwark near London Bridge, but it's just the one odd place for an entire metropolis, whereas in Paris literally each neighborhood has one on different days of the week, and they don't just sell cooked food as at that Southwark market, but above all fresh food of all sorts, pâtés from artisan charcutiers, cheese impossible to find in regular supermarkets, little fresh squids and shells on the fish stalls, etc).

There are street markets all over the place, exactly the same as what you'd find in Paris. Some of them are daily, others only on one or two days a week.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_markets_in_London

As you can see in the Wikipedia link there are several dozen street markets across the city. Here's a specific example of a daily street market that has butchers, greengrocers, etc.:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chapel_Market

[Acajack]

London’s dining scene strikes me as similar to Toronto’s: more concentrated on offering a dazzling array of the world’s cuisines at high degree of quality.

In both places the local or national cuisine is not extremely valued and is not that often called upon for local-international fusions. In Toronto even the locally created fusions tend to be with 2 foreign ones as opposed to a local/national one + a foreign one.

New York also has amazing global cuisine offerings but great American chefs tend to use American cuisine traditions quite a bit in their creations as well. So the fusions you generally get reflect that.

A city like Paris affords a greater place to national cuisine traditions in its finer cuisine offerings, even if it’s obviously not all jambon butter and bouillabaisse.

Hopefully people get my point.

[New Brisavoine]

Originally Posted by kwoldtimer

London has any number of farmers' markets - usually on Saturdays or Sundays.

I lived in two different parts of London, never saw any street market. And I've never come across any while traveling through London. Neither have I heard of anyone shopping at street markets. In Paris you cannot not see street markets here and there (usually if you travel in a neighborhood in the afternoon when it's finished you can see the municipal authorities still cleaning the place, and you can see the overhanging stuff that they have to protect the food stalls).

That's a typical example. Never saw that in London.

[New Brisavoine]

Originally Posted by Kilgore Trout

There are street markets all over the place, exactly the same as what you'd find in Paris. Some of them are daily, others only on one or two days a week.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_markets_in_London

As you can see in the Wikipedia link there are several dozen street markets across the city. Here's a specific example of a daily street market that has butchers, greengrocers, etc.:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chapel_Market

I don't think you realize the density of street markets in Paris.

This map shows all the street markets just in the City of Paris (89 km²), which is like zone 1 of the Tube in London.



For London I could find this map, which covers a territory roughly as large as the City of Paris. Not all of these are food markets, and you can see they have considerably less than Paris.



In Paris the suburbs also each have their food street markets, so if we took a territory of 1,572 km² (land area of Greater London... note that most of the street markets in your Wikipedia list are way beyond zone 1 of the Tube, which would correspond to the banlieue in Paris), you'd probably have around 280-300 food street markets in such a territory (I get that number because 1,572 km² in Paris corresponds to City of Paris, which has 84 street markets, and 200 suburban municipalities, and I assume each municipality has 1 street market, but some large municipalities have in fact several street markets).

[Acajack]

Follow-up:

In Montreal the finer and mid-range cuisine uses Québécois and also French cuisines as jumping-off points for their creations.

This is not the same as in Toronto where the goal is often to create the very best Peking duck outside China in the world or the best jerk chicken in the world outside Jamaica.

[kwoldtimer]

Originally Posted by Acajack

Follow-up:

In Montreal the finer and mid-range cuisine uses Québécois and also French cuisines as jumping-off points for their creations.

This is not the same as in Toronto where the goal is often to create the very best Peking duck outside China in the world or the best jerk chicken in the world outside Jamaica.

Or, being Toronto, the best jerk Peking duck.