Quebec, the French Language, and Quebecois Identity

[1overcosc]

Originally Posted by New Brisavoine

If the only thing that prevents Canada from falling apart like a sand castle and being absorbed by the US is Québec, that's a pretty serious indictment of Canada, don't you think?

It's a bit of spicy take, but you could argue Anglo-Canada essentially lost its raison d'être after the British Empire stopped being a thing. Anglo-Canada, as a polity, was literally founded by Americans who rejected the Revolution in favour of loyalty to the King and the Empire. Now that the Empire no longer exists and the Windsor monarchy is barely in the Canadian consciousness... there isn't really anything at all anymore, other than economic convenience and the hassle of changing things. I don't think it's a coincidence at all that diversity-maxing & the "post-national state" started to become a thing around the same time the Empire dissolved.

But if Quebec leaves, and the whole Constitution thus has to be reopened - I think this reality will suddenly make itself very much felt.

The only real argument most people have against Anglo-Canada rejoining its American motherland is disdain for American politics. That's not a particularly strong foundation for a country, especially not in a federation...

[Loco101]

I don't see the sovereignty movement in Quebec being successful as how the Parti Québécois hopes. However, I do see nationalism there being very strong where our federal government will play less of a role in a number of things in Quebec and maybe also in other provinces that opt out.

[Nashe]

Originally Posted by Acajack

Most of my adult life I have flirted with the idea that maybe Quebec is what defines Canada, gives it the uniqueness it has, and is the glue that keeps it together.

Understandably, Anglo-Canadians reacted very negatively and with hostility to the idea.

So you can imagine I am a bit shocked that a majority of Anglo-Canadians on here seem to argue just that.

Quebec leaves and it all falls apart?

Aside from Ontario, would anyone really say that about any other province?

I think of it more as an important counterweight in the balancing act that is Canada. Think of the country as a beverage tray. Drinks of different sizes scattered around it... all have a different mass and contribute from their location/views to the balance of the tray, overall. Remove a major stein of beer and the whole thing gets wobbly.

[New Brisavoine]

Originally Posted by Acajack

It is also interesting here that in terms of identity no one here thinks Quebec would ever join the USA even if it could. So people actually have more faith in the strength of the Quebecois identity than in the Canadian one.

One word: language. At least up to now.

[New Brisavoine]

Originally Posted by 1overcosc

The only real argument most people have against Anglo-Canada rejoining its American motherland is disdain for American politics. That's not a particularly strong foundation for a country, especially not in a federation...

I think there are also some social and cultural values that are different from the US. Plus the metric system.

[New Brisavoine]

Originally Posted by Loco101

However, I do see nationalism there being very strong where our federal government will play less of a role in a number of things in Quebec and maybe also in other provinces that opt out.

In the EU, opt-outs eventually led to Brexit...

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by Nashe

I think of it more as an important counterweight in the balancing act that is Canada. Think of the country as a beverage tray. Drinks of different sizes scattered around it... all have a different mass and contribute from their location/views to the balance of the tray, overall. Remove a major stein of beer and the whole thing gets wobbly.

This is a great analogy but I don’t think it speaks well of the unity of the rest of the tray.

I know sometimes people like to say that Quebec isn’t the only distinct province and that Manitoba is just as different from Saskatchewan as Quebec and blablabla…

But French Canada (concentrated in Quebec) does have many obvious traits of nationhood. Manitoba for example does not, at least not beyond its fitting in to a broader (1)Canadian, (2)Anglo-Canadian or Anglo (North) American whole.

What people are hinting at here is that 1 and 2 barely exist.

[Nashe]

Originally Posted by Acajack

This is a great analogy but I don’t think it speaks well of the unity of the rest of the tray.

Oh, I think it does... removing the other drinks would cause issues as well though some might be able to be adjusted for better than others.

I know sometimes people like to say that Quebec isn’t the only distinct province and that Manitoba is just as different from Saskatchewan as Quebec and blablabla…

But French Canada (concentrated in Quebec) does have many obvious traits of nationhood. Manitoba for example does not, at least not beyond its fitting in to a broader (1)Canadian, (2)Anglo-Canadian or Anglo (North) American whole.

What people are hinting at here is that 1 and 2 barely exist.

"Distinct" need not be a black-white thing... I can grant you that Quebec might be the "distinct-est" but it still makes up an important part of a unique whole, which is more than the sum of its parts, IMHO. My analogy doesn't even address that point... Quebec "distinctness" will not change whether it is part of Canada, the US or alone.

Originally Posted by New Brisavoine

I think there are also some social and cultural values that are different from the US. Plus the metric system.

I can't believe I'm agreeing with NB here but... I do. As loud as some "out west" are... don't underestimate how significant the grumpy "Anglo Saxon" disdain is for becoming just another US state. There are some pretty proud people (at least in the East; I'm sure there are others ON and beyond). If, for whatever reason, the economics (and let's face it; that'd be the only reason) dictated that parts of an isolated, Quebec-less Canada joined the US (somehow, I realistically don't see it as even possible) it would be with a profound sense of defeated sadness. Kind of how you lie down and play dead and hope the grizzly won't maul you to death but still have to live with the possibility your loved ones recoil in horror when they see your mangled visage.

[Hecate]

The flagship library in the Quebec library system is named after a manitoban. Gabrielle Roy. Yet I’m supposed to believe the culture in my province is somehow less important/distinct than Quebecs.

[Hecate]

Wonder how rich Quebec would be without the last forty years of equalization. 13.3 billion last year alone. How well do you think those social programs would hold up after that Alberta oil tap gets cutoff

[MonctonRad]

Originally Posted by Hecate

Wonder how rich Quebec would be without the last forty years of equalization. 13.3 billion last year alone. How well do you think those social programs would hold up after that Alberta oil tap gets cutoff

Not to give the separatists on here any support or encouragement, but, it is the federal treasury that pays for equalization, not Alberta alone. All Canadian taxpayers are responsible for equalization. One would first have to calculate how much federal tax paid by Quebecers goes towards equalization in order to determine the net benefit. I have no doubt that Quebec is a net beneficiary (probably significantly so). but, we have to compare apples to apples and not to oranges.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by Hecate

The flagship library in the Quebec library system is named after a manitoban. Gabrielle Roy. Yet I’m supposed to believe the culture in my province is somehow less important/distinct than Quebecs.

Interesting you should claim her as a Manitoban as when she was a child and teen your province outlawed schooling in French in a bid to assimilate Francophones like her to English.

Both her parents were from Quebec BTW. She moved to Paris for a few years in her 20s and then to Montreal when she was around 30. She lived in Quebec for the rest of her life.

But yes she is a huge literary figure in Quebec and in French Canada. There is a major college named for her here in Gatineau.

I wonder if even 10% of people in Manitoba would recognize her name?

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by Nashe

Oh, I think it does... removing the other drinks would cause issues as well though some might be able to be adjusted for better than others.

"Distinct" need not be a black-white thing... I can grant you that Quebec might be the "distinct-est" but it still makes up an important part of a unique whole, which is more than the sum of its parts, IMHO. My analogy doesn't even address that point... Quebec "distinctness" will not change whether it is part of Canada, the US or alone.
I can't believe I'm agreeing with NB here but... I do. As loud as some "out west" are... don't underestimate how significant the grumpy "Anglo Saxon" disdain is for becoming just another US state. There are some pretty proud people (at least in the East; I'm sure there are others ON and beyond). If, for whatever reason, the economics (and let's face it; that'd be the only reason) dictated that parts of an isolated, Quebec-less Canada joined the US (somehow, I realistically don't see it as even possible) it would be with a profound sense of defeated sadness. Kind of how you lie down and play dead and hope the grizzly won't maul you to death but still have to live with the possibility your loved ones recoil in horror when they see your mangled visage.

I also agree with New Brisavoine that there are some specific traits that Anglo-Canadians generally share from coast to coast (and with Québécois in some cases) that make them stand out from Americans.

That said that does not mean they could not be fairly easily smoothed out if Anglo-Canada ever came to be part of the US. The US already has a ton of outlier regionalisms within it in terms of mindset, demeanour and attitudes. Ironically, in the context of this discussion, the US is more diverse than Anglo-Canada is. There is less of a difference between Halifax, Toronto and Calgary than there is between Boston, New Orleans and Salt Lake City.

[YOWetal]

Originally Posted by Acajack

I also agree with New Brisavoine that there are some specific traits that Anglo-Canadians generally share from coast to coast (and with Québécois in some cases) that make them stand out from Americans.

That said that does not mean they could not be fairly easily smoothed out if Anglo-Canada ever came to be part of the US. The US already has a ton of outlier regionalisms within it in terms of mindset, demeanour and attitudes. Ironically, in the context of this discussion, the US is more diverse than Anglo-Canada is. There is less of a difference between Halifax, Toronto and Calgary than there is between Boston, New Orleans and Salt Lake City.

This is a very Quebec and Laurentian attitude. Not that it's certainly wrong but I'd say New Brunswick and Maine have more in common than they each do with Chicago and Toronto or the latter do with each other.

Originally Posted by P'tit Renard

Personally I agree, and I've been pretty vocal that Canada can't become a cohesive country just by pushing the cult of diversity and multiculturalism to its extremes and continue its misguided ideology of a "post-national identity".

Diversity can be a part of our identity but recent immigration has been so rapid we risk losing any kind of ability to integrate newcomers to any identity. Quebec has less of this problem but an idenity that is less welcoming.

[YOWetal]

Originally Posted by MonctonRad

Not to give the separatists on here any support or encouragement, but, it is the federal treasury that pays for equalization, not Alberta alone. All Canadian taxpayers are responsible for equalization. One would first have to calculate how much federal tax paid by Quebecers goes towards equalization in order to determine the net benefit. I have no doubt that Quebec is a net beneficiary (probably significantly so). but, we have to compare apples to apples and not to oranges.

Yes per capita matters but so does size. Alberta doesn't pay for most of equalization in anyway but without Alberta and by that we really mean Oil and Gas the average would be dragged down substantially. Especially with Quebec catching up to Ontario. A very interesting point would be reached when (if) Quebec no longer gets equalization. That point seems critical for Quebec sovereignty. The maritime provinces are small so Quebec resentment isn't likely to be substantial but the best argument will be lost even if as I point out above the economic shock would be large no matter what.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by YOWetal

This is a very Quebec and Laurentian attitude. Not that it's certainly wrong but I'd say New Brunswick and Maine have more in common than they each do with Chicago and Toronto or the latter do with each other.

.

I don’t disagree, at least for certain things.

These two truisms are not necessarily contradictory BTW.

Just as in some ways Québécois are more similar to Americans than they are to Anglo-Canadians. (Québécois tend to be more brash and boisterous for example, and don’t really fit with the Reserved Canadian stereotype.)

Of course this doesn’t mean that Québécois are exactly like Americans, or even that overall they are more similar to Americans than Anglo-Canadians are.

[lio45]

Originally Posted by Hecate

The flagship library in the Quebec library system is named after a manitoban. Gabrielle Roy. Yet I’m supposed to believe the culture in my province is somehow less important/distinct than Quebecs.

Incorrect deduction. It’s named after Gabrielle Roy as a French Canadian.

What you just did is equivalent to observing the fact that every Quebec city has a JFK avenue or street, and concluding that you’re expecting these cities to also have Barack Obama and Donald Trump avenues in a generation, when in fact Avenue du Président-Kennedy is MUCH more closely related to boulevard Pie-IX or rue Saint(e)-Whatever. (I’m sure New Brisavoine naturally gets this, unlike you; he’s less of a foreigner than you!)

[lio45]

Originally Posted by MonctonRad

Not to give the separatists on here any support or encouragement, but, it is the federal treasury that pays for equalization, not Alberta alone. All Canadian taxpayers are responsible for equalization. One would first have to calculate how much federal tax paid by Quebecers goes towards equalization in order to determine the net benefit. I have no doubt that Quebec is a net beneficiary (probably significantly so). but, we have to compare apples to apples and not to oranges.

It’s always amusing when someone from a province that gets more equalization than Quebec shows up to whine about equalization. At least when it’s oilbros from Fort Mac complaining, I can somewhat respect that — they have a point.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by lio45

Incorrect deduction. It’s named after Gabrielle Roy as a French Canadian.

What you just did is equivalent to observing the fact that every Quebec city has a JFK avenue or street, and concluding that you’re expecting these cities to also have Barack Obama and Donald Trump avenues in a generation, when in fact Avenue du Président-Kennedy is MUCH more closely related to boulevard Pie-IX or rue Saint(e)-Whatever. (I’m sure New Brisavoine naturally gets this, unlike you; he’s less of a foreigner than you!)

My Acadienne grandmother had a picture of JFK in her living room.

[lio45]

Originally Posted by Acajack

I also agree with New Brisavoine that there are some specific traits that Anglo-Canadians generally share from coast to coast (and with Québécois in some cases) that make them stand out from Americans.

That said that does not mean they could not be fairly easily smoothed out if Anglo-Canada ever came to be part of the US. The US already has a ton of outlier regionalisms within it in terms of mindset, demeanour and attitudes. Ironically, in the context of this discussion, the US is more diverse than Anglo-Canada is. There is less of a difference between Halifax, Toronto and Calgary than there is between Boston, New Orleans and Salt Lake City.

Exactly. Take a random sample of Americans, in which you’ll have Manhattanites as well as people from the rural South, and you’ll see that mixing a bit of random Anglo-Canadians into that sample doesn’t alter it too much.

I’d say all things considered, the outlier of that Anglo-Canada+WholeOfUSA sample is more likely to be the guy from El Paso or the lower Rio Grande Valley who barely speaks English…