Quebec, the French Language, and Quebecois Identity

[Acajack]

Yes Alberta might do this. My point still remains that Ontario would want to maintain ties with Quebec and would be able to get Canada-sans-Quebec to comply, being 50+% of it.

Though Alberta probably would not do it out of simple anger or spite. The new or status quo arrangement would have to be very detrimental to Alberta. Not sure why that would automatically be the case. They would actually be freed of the equalization bogeyman and the most anti-oil province.

Also, at least for Quebec, it wouldn't care how the new Canada structures itself or even if it survives intact.

Originally Posted by 1overcosc

Ontario certainly does... but Alberta?

This is part of why I think this:



Ontario is going to want to play nice and try to keep economic relationships intact and will prioritize political compromise to get there. Alberta is a lot less likely to be on board with this approach. And if Ontario tries to use its dominant position in the country to force Alberta's hand, they might just say fuck it and seek to join America.

[New Brisavoine]

Originally Posted by lio45

Those maps aren’t apples to apples. You’re excluding farmland in Quebec while including hills in Virginia.

No, I haven't included the Appalachians. And even if you enlarge the territory for Québec towards Sherbrooke, you're not going to reach 71,000 km².

[New Brisavoine]

Originally Posted by YOWetal

Ontario almost certainly trades more already with several, perhaps many US states. These are the exact argument made by UK Brexiteers. They need us.

You're forgetting SERVICES. SERVICES.

A business trip from Montréal to Toronto or vice versa counts as trade in services.

And even for goods alone, I'm waiting to see stats proving that Ontario trades more with the US than with Québec.

Originally Posted by YOWetal

Look at a map and the UK's contribution to the EU budget pre-Brexit. Hint Ireland is seperated by the UK and like the Maritimes is a mere appendage economically. It's smaller than Quebec's share but there is also no United States next door.

Republic of Ireland is 1% of the EU's population. So it would be as if Québec separated rump Canada from a province of just 400,000 inhabitants. Again, it's not comaprable. Besides, Ireland is an island anyway, so was already separated from the continental EU even before Brexit. It hasn't changed much. It's not as if Irish goods need to transit via the UK. There are direct ship lines between the continental EU and Ireland (going through France, in particular ports in Brittany).

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by New Brisavoine

You're forgetting SERVICES. SERVICES.

A business trip from Montréal to Toronto or vice versa counts as trade in services.

And even for goods alone, I'm waiting to see stats proving that Ontario trades more with the US than with Québec.


.

Look at one of my posts from last night.

[New Brisavoine]

Originally Posted by Architype

But, as I said, aside from the obvious climate differences, with it's vast northern territory, full of hydro, mineral, and timber resources, as well as an incredibly long coastline, the economy of Quebec is far more advantaged than a smaller state like Virginia.

My remark was largely historical. The fact is, Québec grew much more than Virginia since 1790, mostly at times when all these northern wildernesses were useless and non-exploited. Québec could rely only on its tiny southern farmland, which is no larger than Virginia's. And yet it grew 5 times more than Virginia. It's both an indictment of the slow development under French rule, and a pretty incredible success story in the 19th century and part of the 20th century with their high fertility. Immigration-wise, I don't know if Québec has had more than Virginia. Virginia attracted lots of people due to being a southern suburb of Washington DC.

[New Brisavoine]

Originally Posted by Acajack

Sorry no links but did some searching.

40% of Ontario's trade within Canada is with Quebec.

Ontario gets 100 billion out of trading with Quebec.

The top US state for Ontario is Michigan: 80 billion.

For the entire USA for Ontario the total is 500 billion.

So Quebec trade for Ontario is one fifth of trade with the entire USA.

The Ontario-Quebec trade relationship is even bigger than I thought.

It is not going anywhere.

And that's just trade in goods I presume. Doesn't even include services which is the largest part of the economy. Trade in services with the US is hindered by regulations that make it hard to trade.

Trade in services inside the EU is also hindered by regulations. The EU is a common market for goods, much less so for services. That's why the UK was far less integrated with the EU than Québec is with Canada, because you guys have a common service market, whereas we don't, so the UK didn't trade all that much in services with the rest of the EU (the UK would have liked to lower those barriers, but the rest of continental Europe refused, because that would have made the London financial center even more overdominating, among other things).

[New Brisavoine]

Originally Posted by 1overcosc

Ontario is going to want to play nice and try to keep economic relationships intact and will prioritize political compromise to get there. Alberta is a lot less likely to be on board with this approach. And if Ontario tries to use its dominant position in the country to force Alberta's hand, they might just say fuck it and seek to join America.

But Alberta is also far less likely to be 'emotional' about Québec seceding (notice where the forumers here getting angry about the prospect of Québec's independence come from... never from Western Canada). So why would they want to exact 'retribution' against Québec if they are less upset about it seceding?

[New Brisavoine]

Originally Posted by 1overcosc

Repost. Food for thought. I thought of this is the context of the entirety of Canada being annexed by the USA, given that this is now something we're all.. thinking? panicking? (ha!) about right now.

The only 'glitch' with this scenario is the status of unincorporated territory of the US works with small island territories of only a few hundred thousands of inhabitants. It remains to be seen whether it could work for a large polity of 9 million people (soon 10) sitting on the mainland and bordering some of the most important US states.

In any case Canada is not joining the US during our lifetime, so the point is moot.

[New Brisavoine]

Originally Posted by Architype

Canadian provinces would be richer as part of the US.

You'd also have to work more. And forget about your welfare state.

[New Brisavoine]

Originally Posted by Acajack

It could just be that we suck at managing our own economic affairs.

To be honest, a large part of the difference between US and Canada's GDP per capita is down to numbers of hours worked. It's the same with Europe. You've traded wealth for leisure. Americans lead the rat race, they'll die being the richest man of the cemetery as we say in France, but what's the point of being the richest man of the cemetery?

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by New Brisavoine

To be honest, a large part of the difference between US and Canada's GDP per capita is down to numbers of hours worked. It's the same with Europe. You've traded wealth for leisure. Americans lead the rat race, they'll die being the richest man of the cemetery as we say in France, but what's the point of being the richest man of the cemetery?

As my aunt always says: le coffre-fort ne suit pas le corbillard!

[New Brisavoine]

^^I think that's a unique perspective that separates us radically from the Anglo-Saxons, for better or worse. In fact I wonder whether a Canada without Québec would become more USian in terms of numbers of hours worked, less vacation time and less welfare state.

[Acajack]

Another good saying: je ne veux pas perdre ma vie à la gagner!

[OldDartmouthMark]

Originally Posted by Acajack

We wouldn’t need to in order to have free trade with them, plus they wouldn’t want us as a state.

An interesting scenario for this was proposed by Overosc1 in another thread a day or two ago.

It was meant as a joke. The last thing that Quebec would want is to become 'murican. Why bother to separate from Canada to retain your status as a French nation only to become a northern version of Louisiana? The US is the culture drain that all Québecois fear, is it not? Nobody in Quebec would accept becoming the 51st state.

[Nashe]

Aw man, sure; mom and dad fight once in a while. But generally they get along fine enough and would prefer to be with each other than anyone else. Grandma isn't helping when she hints that mom could have done better if she'd stayed single and not accepted the proposal of the first guy that came along... And now dad's stressed out cuz on top of trying to figure out how to make mom happy, the crack-head next door with the yard full of sea-doos, jacked-up F150s and half-working jacuzzis keeps ragging on dad about the lawn-clippings and tree-branches falling over the fence and threatening to sue him about it.

[MonctonRad]

Originally Posted by Nashe

Aw man, sure; mom and dad fight once in a while. But generally they get along fine enough and would prefer to be with each other than anyone else. Grandma isn't helping when she hints that mom could have done better if she'd stayed single and not accepted the proposal of the first guy that came along... And now dad's stressed out cuz on top of trying to figure out how to make mom happy, the crack-head next door with the yard full of sea-doos, jacked-up F150s and half-working jacuzzis keeps ragging on dad about the lawn-clippings and tree-branches falling over the fence and threatening to sue him about it.

And nobody thinks about the children, and their psychological welfare. It's all me, me, me.............

[New Brisavoine]

Originally Posted by Nashe

mom and dad fight once in a while. But generally they get along fine enough and would prefer to be with each other than anyone else.

That marriage was started with a rape though. That's the fundamental (and inescapable) issue of that marriage, even if "dad" has been nicer in the past 50 years.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by New Brisavoine

That marriage was started with a rape though. That's the fundamental (and inescapable) issue of that marriage, even if "dad" has been nicer in the past 50 years.

In the Canadian national mythology, Canada is like Switzerland where different national groups came together totally willingly to form a single country.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by Nashe

Aw man, sure; mom and dad fight once in a while. But generally they get along fine enough and would prefer to be with each other than anyone else. Grandma isn't helping when she hints that mom could have done better if she'd stayed single and not accepted the proposal of the first guy that came along... And now dad's stressed out cuz on top of trying to figure out how to make mom happy, the crack-head next door with the yard full of sea-doos, jacked-up F150s and half-working jacuzzis keeps ragging on dad about the lawn-clippings and tree-branches falling over the fence and threatening to sue him about it.

Pretty funny!

[Nashe]

Originally Posted by New Brisavoine

That marriage was started with a rape though. That's the fundamental (and inescapable) issue of that marriage, even if "dad" has been nicer in the past 50 years.

Don't make this gross. Mom was just a pawn in the loveless marriage that Grandma and Grandpa had. They were real brutes that stomped around, terrorizing the town.