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  #11541  
Old Posted Dec 19, 2024, 4:07 PM
YOWetal YOWetal is offline
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Originally Posted by Acajack View Post
I don't know if this would in fact be "it" but a big topic of discussion in Ottawa-Quebec relations has been the transfer of tax points (point d'impôts) from Ottawa to Quebec. The idea being that Ottawa frees up X% and then Quebec takes up the same % and can use it for its own priorities, and the effect on the Quebec taxpayer is nil.

Another hot topic has always been "dédoublement", so basically areas where both Ottawa and Quebec are involved, which increases costs in addition to jurisdictional overlap.
Yes but the end result is the same. If they give Quebec tax points they either need to keep providing those programs to other provinces or stop and give the other provinces the same letting everyone choose how to spend it. Ontario can use this tax room to cut taxes and we are back at square one and if they don't Polievre has accomplished nothing except handed control to the provinces. Quebec of course doesn't really want its taxes handed back but wants it to be transferred on a per capita basis.
     
     
  #11542  
Old Posted Dec 19, 2024, 4:10 PM
P'tit Renard P'tit Renard is offline
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But Ottawa does have a tendency to be a control freak, especially under Liberal governments and especially as regards Quebec.
In the Trudeau era, it's made worse by the fact that they're failing core federal competences abysmally, while butting into provincial jurisdiction. It's frustrating to say the least. It's like a government with ADHD.
     
     
  #11543  
Old Posted Dec 19, 2024, 5:52 PM
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Originally Posted by kwoldtimer View Post
You seem very out of touch with Canadian and Quebec political discourse.
I think the fact that some of you here don't seem to see a problem with it is quite fascinating, and explains a lot why Canada is facing the issues that it is facing with the famed "two solitudes". To an outside observer, it's glaringly obvious. To the frog immersed in the slowly warming up pot of water, it probably isn't.
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  #11544  
Old Posted Dec 19, 2024, 5:59 PM
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Anyway, I thought you'd find this article published in the French press today interesting. The Belgian equivalent of bonjour/hi has generated a big controversy in their parliament.

PS: Notice how the Flemish nationalists (like the Scottish nationalists) have been quite good at recruiting (non White European) immigrants to their cause. The leader of the CD&V mentioned in the article (CD&V is a moderate nationalist Flemish party, a bit like PQ in Québec, which used to be the dominating force in Flemish politics, but which is now dominated by more extreme nationalist parties like NVA and Vlaams Belang) is the son of a Shia Iraqi immigrant. I find it odd that such a guy (raised by his Iraqi father in French and by his Belgian mother in Dutch) would be parroting the anti-French nationalist discourse of the more extreme brands of Flemish nationalism.

Quote:
Belgique : un «bonjour» dans un train en Flandre déchaîne les passions

Le Figaro
19 décembre

Une plainte a été déposée à la suite d’une annonce formulée en français par un contrôleur. Certains passagers lui reprochent de ne pas l’avoir faite en néerlandais.

C’est une annonce qui a mis le feu aux poudres. Un «bonjour» lancé par l'un d'eux dans un train circulant en Flandre lui a valu une plainte d'un voyageur néerlandophone mécontent de l'entendre parler français, un incident qui a enflammé jeudi le débat politique.

Alors qu'il salue les voyageurs en entrant dans une voiture avec un sonore (et bilingue) «goeiemorgen/bonjour», ce contrôleur francophone se fait corriger par l'un d'eux. «On n'est pas encore à Bruxelles, vous devez seulement utiliser le néerlandais!», lui intime ce néerlandophone. Révélé mercredi par deux médias, le dépôt de plainte a été confirmé jeudi à l'AFP par l'instance qui est en saisie, la Commission permanente de contrôle linguistique (CPCL), chargée de veiller à l'emploi des langues dans l'administration.

L’incident a pris une tournure politique

Dans une Belgique divisée entre Wallons, dans le sud francophone, et Flamands, du nord néerlandophone - et où Bruxelles est la seule région bilingue -, l'incident a pris une tournure politique et fait irruption dans les débats jeudi après-midi à la Chambre. Interpellé par deux députés flamands, le ministre de la Mobilité, l'écologiste francophone Georges Gilkinet, a pris la défense du contrôleur, Ilyass Alba, et appelé à «dépoussiérer une législation du siècle dernier».

«Les accompagnateurs de train font de leur mieux pour être au service des voyageurs, qu'ils soient usagers quotidiens ou touristes, Flamands en Wallonie, francophones en Flandre ou étrangers. Utiliser plusieurs langues pour dire bonjour ne me choque pas», a lancé le ministre, qui a autorité sur la SNCB, l'exploitant public des chemins de fer belges. Il a souligné que dans un petit pays comme la Belgique, les frontières régionales étaient sans cesse traversées par les trains.

La règle sur l'usage du français et du néerlandais dans les trains belges est complexe. En théorie les contrôleurs - appelés accompagnateurs en Belgique - ne doivent utiliser les deux langues que sur le territoire de Bruxelles et dans les quelques communes dites «à facilités», où l'administration est aussi bilingue. Ailleurs ils doivent toujours s'exprimer dans la langue de la région où ils se trouvent.

«Il faut du respect pour le néerlandais»

Côté flamand, le président du parti chrétien-démocrate (CD&V) Sammy Mahdi est monté au créneau. «En tant que pouvoir public, on ne peut pas jeter comme ça par-dessus bord notre législation linguistique. Il faut du respect pour le néerlandais», a-t-il affirmé. Cela a valu l'ironie du ministre à ce chef de parti engagé depuis six mois dans de difficiles négociations pour constituer le futur gouvernement. «Je m'étonne que certains considèrent que c'est la priorité du jour alors qu'ils ont aussi un gouvernement à former», a taclé Georges Gilkinet. «Vous courez derrière vos collègues nationalistes!»

De son côté, la SNCB a estimé que «c'est l'intérêt du voyageur qui doit primer». «Il faut un peu plus de souplesse dans l'application de la réglementation», a dit à l'AFP un des porte-paroles de l'entreprise. «Dire bonjour en plusieurs langues c'est juste sympathique, on ne peut que remercier nos accompagnateurs pour cela», a-t-il poursuivi. La CPCL, saisie de la plainte, va «demander à la SNCB des informations supplémentaires sur son application des règles», a déclaré un des juristes de la commission. Elle dispose de 180 jours pour rendre un avis, qui est non contraignant.

https://www.lefigaro.fr/societes/belgiqu...n-flandre-dechaine-les-passions-20241219
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  #11545  
Old Posted Dec 19, 2024, 6:00 PM
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Where would you be without this thread? You don't post anywhere else on SSP.

Did you even realize that this forum is called "Skyscraperpage"?
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  #11546  
Old Posted Dec 19, 2024, 6:10 PM
New Brisavoine New Brisavoine is offline
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Originally Posted by MolsonExport View Post
You don't post anywhere else on SSP.
I used to, but absolutely no one participates in the European forums, so I don't post there anymore. If you guys weren't so provincially interested only in your own corner of the world, perhaps the forum would be more internationally interesting?
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  #11547  
Old Posted Dec 19, 2024, 6:16 PM
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Originally Posted by New Brisavoine View Post
I used to, but absolutely no one participates in the European forums, so I don't post there anymore. If you guys weren't so provincially interested only in your own corner of the world, perhaps the forum would be more internationally interesting?
It's literally a provincial thread.
     
     
  #11548  
Old Posted Dec 19, 2024, 6:41 PM
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Originally Posted by Acajack View Post
I don't know if this would in fact be "it" but a big topic of discussion in Ottawa-Quebec relations has been the transfer of tax points (point d'impôts) from Ottawa to Quebec. The idea being that Ottawa frees up X% and then Quebec takes up the same % and can use it for its own priorities, and the effect on the Quebec taxpayer is nil.

Another hot topic has always been "dédoublement", so basically areas where both Ottawa and Quebec are involved, which increases costs in addition to jurisdictional overlap.

I know that the Ottawa and ROC reaction is generally to say "why doesn't Quebec just let Ottawa do it, and mind its own business", but generally speaking the consensus in Quebec (political and public opinion) is that people want Quebec to take care of most of these items.
It needs to be understood that this is a two way street. Unfortunately PP will not be the messenger for that.
     
     
  #11549  
Old Posted Dec 19, 2024, 10:08 PM
YOWetal YOWetal is offline
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Originally Posted by P'tit Renard View Post
In the Trudeau era, it's made worse by the fact that they're failing core federal competences abysmally, while butting into provincial jurisdiction. It's frustrating to say the least. It's like a government with ADHD.
The biggest criticisms against them are provincial in nature. Housing, Healthcare have been ruined by Trudeau we here. Both prior to the massive immigration surge which absolutely made it worse but as we see now as we enter recession probably propped us up for awhile too.

If the federal government exited all provincial areas and cut taxes and left the provinces to their own devices that would devastate Quebec finances. Ontario would likely leave a lot of that tax room on the table making Quebec uncompetitive. It might actually force separation and maybe they know this as they'd have to exit our customs union etc.
     
     
  #11550  
Old Posted Dec 20, 2024, 11:06 AM
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Just to say that it isn't bad to have a guy from France in here opining on Quebec and Canada. It's interesting.
     
     
  #11551  
Old Posted Dec 20, 2024, 1:03 PM
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Originally Posted by kool maudit View Post
Just to say that it isn't bad to have a guy from France in here opining on Quebec and Canada. It's interesting.
But irritating and annoying since he is continually fomenting discord, disunity and separatist thought and rhetoric.
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  #11552  
Old Posted Dec 20, 2024, 1:34 PM
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But irritating and annoying since he is continually fomenting discord, disunity and separatist thought and rhetoric.
Is anyone really going to be convinced to vote Oui in a (still hypothetical) Quebec independence referendum because of New Brisavoine's posts on SSP Canada?

I don't think the animosity towards him that is related to that at all.

I think it's more that many people in Canada like to comfort themselves in thinking that Quebec and its views/gripes/ambition are isolated and inward, and don't like to be reminded that there is at least some sympathy for them out there in the wider world.
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  #11553  
Old Posted Dec 20, 2024, 1:36 PM
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Originally Posted by P'tit Renard View Post
In the Trudeau era, it's made worse by the fact that they're failing core federal competences abysmally, while butting into provincial jurisdiction. It's frustrating to say the least. It's like a government with ADHD.
I think I've mentioned before that a new element in the debate if ever it heats up again is that the federal apparatus is sputtering badly.

Not that the Quebec-run side of things is fantastic right now, but historically when such a comparison was made, Ottawa and the feds always looked way better as their services and administration were more efficient and of higher quality.

I don't think we can say that with an honest face anymore.

Though who knows what the future holds.
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  #11554  
Old Posted Dec 20, 2024, 1:38 PM
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Originally Posted by kwoldtimer View Post
It needs to be understood that this is a two way street.
I alluded to exactly that in a subsequent post.

Quebec also impedes on areas of federal jurisdiction sometimes.
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  #11555  
Old Posted Dec 20, 2024, 1:40 PM
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Originally Posted by MonctonRad View Post
But irritating and annoying since he is continually fomenting discord, disunity and separatist thought and rhetoric.


The first two things are a part of an open discourse and the second two would be suspicious if absent, given the thread topic.
     
     
  #11556  
Old Posted Dec 20, 2024, 1:41 PM
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My belief is that consensus cannot be moderated into existence, or created by any other top-down measure. What you get from doing that is a comforting but brittle illusion.
     
     
  #11557  
Old Posted Dec 20, 2024, 1:52 PM
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My belief is that consensus cannot be moderated into existence, or created by any other top-down measure. What you get from doing that is a comforting but brittle illusion.
A cynic might say you've just described Canada in a nutshell.
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  #11558  
Old Posted Dec 20, 2024, 2:05 PM
YOWetal YOWetal is offline
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Originally Posted by Acajack View Post
Is anyone really going to be convinced to vote Oui in a (still hypothetical) Quebec independence referendum because of New Brisavoine's posts on SSP Canada?

I don't think the animosity towards him that is related to that at all.

I think it's more that many people in Canada like to comfort themselves in thinking that Quebec and its views/gripes/ambition are isolated and inward, and don't like to be reminded that there is at least some sympathy for them out there in the wider world.
That's fair. I find his comments interesting and mostly relevant. The European and historical context and completely different world view and educational background of a someone from France adds to the thread. There are lots of people we disagree with here.
     
     
  #11559  
Old Posted Dec 20, 2024, 2:13 PM
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That story about the legal mess generated by an unsuccessful attempt to obtain a 7up in Dutch on a Belgian train does not sound foreign at all, actually.
     
     
  #11560  
Old Posted Dec 20, 2024, 2:19 PM
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Originally Posted by Acajack View Post
I think I've mentioned before that a new element in the debate if ever it heats up again is that the federal apparatus is sputtering badly.

Not that the Quebec-run side of things is fantastic right now, but historically when such a comparison was made, Ottawa and the feds always looked way better as their services and administration were more efficient and of higher quality.

I don't think we can say that with an honest face anymore.

Though who knows what the future holds.
Yep, you’ve mentioned that before, and you’re not alone, it’s an excellent point.

Support for sovereignty is typically at ~35-40% with Ottawa recognized as more competent than Quebec City baked in those numbers (it’s one of the best arguments against sovereignty). If the next PQ govt can actually pull off a phase of “Good Governance” while Poilievre turns out to be barely less bad than JT, I wonder what the sovereignty dynamic will be then…
     
     
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