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  #41  
Old Posted Jan 28, 2019, 2:52 PM
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Originally Posted by casper View Post
This can be a positive if the sponsor has small children and the parents become the day care service. I would fully support that move.
Seniors are the greatest tax burden we have and if we put all that money into CO2 sequestering we could cancel out all the pollution in Canada at $110CAD/ton.

Even one operation on a senior could cost us much more then the taxes an immigrant produces. Bringing a senior in needs to be very difficult for good reason.

Last edited by misher; Jan 28, 2019 at 7:38 PM.
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  #42  
Old Posted Jan 28, 2019, 10:37 PM
rofina rofina is offline
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When in recent memory have you seen a condo completed in 20.6 months?

General rule of thumb is one month down one month up for excav. Lobby and podium floors are around a month each then 2 weeks per floor forming.

So on a standard 30 storey condo with 4 levels of U/G parking and a 3 floor podium:

- 8 months excav/parking forming
- 3 months ground and podium
- 12 months tower

So 23 months in and you've only topped out, you haven't even finished the units. Envelope and finishing usually last another 10-12 months.

Let's take Ultra in Surrey as an example. Easy greenfield site with plenty of laydown and no difficult site conditions. Broke ground late Nov 2015, today they still do not have their occupancy, so it will be well over 3 years to occupancy for a very standard metro Vancouver tower.

So given that 36 months is a pretty standard time for a mid sized condo, with larger condos like Brentwood taking 48+, smaller condos would need to be finished in 10-16 months to have an average of 20 month construction time. That just does not happen, not even woodframe.
Until recently even SFH time lines could be measured in years for the CoV. SFH also don't meaningfully add to housing stock, even if stats reflect a new SFH having multiple suites, this is usually the case with all existing stock but the suites are not account for in stats because of compliance issues.

Anyone in the building industry today knows the extended timeslines due to skilled trade shortages. These shortages are prevalent not only because the market is busy, but because we have structural issues preventing kids from entering trades.

Its all about promoting STEM and not how to rough wire a house. Combine this with non competitive wages and higher cost of living to anywhere else in Canada and we have the problems that we do. Buildings standing not worked on for weeks, or even months as builders wait for a drywall crew to free up, or a framing crew, or whatever the trade necessary.

Secondly, I expect these population numbers will be on the low side. We have a lot of big positive news for the City business wise over the next 2-5 years. This has a knock on effect that I expect will only increase demand over the medium and long term.
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  #43  
Old Posted Jan 28, 2019, 10:43 PM
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Its all about promoting STEM and not how to rough wire a house. Combine this with non competitive wages and higher cost of living to anywhere else in Canada and we have the problems that we do. Buildings standing not worked on for weeks, or even months as builders wait for a drywall crew to free up, or a framing crew, or whatever the trade necessary.
Which is funny since there's probably a large number of potential immigrants who already know how to do these tasks. I suspect a large chunk of the work crews for Indian homebuilders come from India rather than growing up here. Same likely goes for Chinese homebuilders (although seeing Chinese do construction seems to be getting rarer). You have towers like the below going up in most developing nations with work crews paid a fraction of our wages.

Perhaps the solution to solving our housing crisis while maintaining our immigration goals is to fast track immigrants with construction skills?

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  #44  
Old Posted Jul 6, 2024, 11:38 PM
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It seemed appropriate to bump this thread, rather than start a new one. Metro Vancouver have released their projections through to 2050. There are three scenarios, low, medium and high growth (with medium being the current best guess).

Unlike the last projection (from 2021), in the new one Surrey still won't have overtaken Vancouver's expected 2050 population. (Both would have just under a million residents).

The previous projection saw Metro Vancouver at 3.8m people in 2050, now there could be 4.2m. (The low growth scenario still anticipates 3.98m).

Rounding to the nearest 1,000, the greatest growth in the scenario is obviously Surrey, adding 362,000 to 2050, but the City of Vancouver adds 293,000. Burnaby is expected to add 126,000, Township of Langley 99,000, Coquitlam 94,000 and Richmond 90,000. The entire north shore adds 82,000.
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  #45  
Old Posted Jul 7, 2024, 1:44 AM
BaddieB BaddieB is offline
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Vancouver is definitely going to surpass 1 million by 2050 with the rate of development with the Broadway Plan and new TOD zones (which will probably stay around even if they are scrapped provincially). Vancouver has been outbuilding Surrey for the past few years and this is a trend that will definitely continue as City Hall tilts more pro-development.
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  #46  
Old Posted Jul 7, 2024, 2:43 AM
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Hmm that's interesting, I am surprised Vancouver proper is expected to grow that much, even with densification, it's a lot of people to add in a small space. Especially compared to Surrey, which is densifying existing neighbourhoods all over the place (ie. downtown and the surrounding area, but also on some arterial roads. Townhouses and condos are now way more common, compared to Surrey in the 80s and 90s, when SF would have been king. But Surrey does still have way more new SF housing than Van, and brand new neighbourhoods still being built (ie. former fields becoming nighbourhoods). Vancouver basically has River District as the only new from scratch development that wasn't replacing existing residential. Olympic Village and its environs are more or less substantially built out now (the latest Concert condo closes the loop and connects to the eastern condo cluster without giant empty spaces in between). There's definitely some parcels left for redevelopment, but until the giant redevelopment of the vacant land between Hinge Park and the Cambie Bridge, it's criminal how there's no pressure to get moving on this development, we need more large scale development now! So basically with several big marquee projects like Jericho, Oakridge, the Canada Lands holdings in Oakridge, and River District, the city thinks there is enough new builds (along with densification of existing neighbourhoods) to grow that much? I hope the projections are true, I'd love to see us at that population level, so urban and dense. But I'm just having a hard time seeing it working, and basically at the level of Surrey, which seems ludicrous. But exciting as the two cities narrow so much, seeing them both grow together is nice to see, and not that the mighty Surrey is killing Vancouver to grow, they can both grow together. In a lot of American cities, this phenomenon can be seen a lot, where traditional core cities lose population, but suburbs accelerate (so it's basically just a resdistribution, and not strong regional growth). You want your cities to all succeed, and not cut each other down.

And I don't think Vancouver includes UBC in their population numbers? I know UBC is part of that weird Electoral Area A, so bizarre, it basically gets counted and is organizationally joined to the wilderness of the North Shore and Barnston Island, like totally absurd nowadays. It should be incorporated or joined to Vancouver. But as much as I love the idea of that huge population injection providing an instant boost to our population figures, I love how efficient and quick UBC is with development, they are so efficient compared to City of Van. And they can really do anything they want and not have permit concerns, meaning things go from proposal to construction and completion way quicker. So I wouldn't want their development oversight moving to City Hall, yikes, that would be a culture shock for campus development. If only their population could get added to the CoV, but then they maintain complete autonomy and still develop and manage however they want. I wish demographers starting adding not only UBC to Vancouver's population, but also think of Senakw. That's a massive amount of people in the heart of Vancouver being added, and yet it isn't going to be reflected in our population counts, it is a very weird situation, and really masks what will be significant population growth in former green field space in the heart of the city. Again, would be good if they could get counted in CoV figures, but then maintain their status as a First Nations Reserve of course, and not be subject to CoV rules. Just like UBC. But that's wishful thinking I know. Just something that I thought about, especially seeing these projections. Some of the highest growth "in the city" is on land that isn't even counted in the city. We should be normalizing adding all of these together to get a really true, realistic idea of the population in the area we call Vancouver, whether or not it is CoV technically.

Another area where this is now the case is TFN (Tsawwassen First Nation). If anyone hasn't driven around there yet, go do it, it's crazy how much development is there now and soooo much still to come, it's enormous. And like UBC, their permitting and development process is way smoother than CoV, and things get built out much quicker. Needless to say, the population of the TFN land went from a smattering of reserve residents in a few small parts of their overall territory, to a gigantic frenzy of SF homes, townhouses, apartments, all from scratch. So the % increase has been massive (from 2013 to 2023, TFN population went from 781 to 2,520 a 225% increase. And similar to Senakw, it's right in the heart of South Delta, so not some isolated remote development on a reserve out of the way. TFN is very much part of Tsawwassen itself, you wouldn't know you are suddenly on reserve land. They share same highways in and out, same services, and is an intricate part of the Delta port lands and related developments. They have some colossal warehouses out there too, so are putting in a good component of needed light industrial too, not just residential. So this total should be added to Delta, it is only realistic. Same as above, TFN would control everything and do its own development, but population would be counted together.

As a very quick ending thought, a feel like Delta deserves a special kudos right now. Their population growth turnaround has been quite shocking, and noteworthy. Based on the latest StatCan census subdivision population estimates for 2023 (https://www150.statcan.gc.ca/t1/tbl1...pid=1710015501, from 2002 to 2007 (6 years consecutively), Delta shrunk every year. Not by a ton, but still shrunk (the data set I have only goes as far back as 2001, but I think Delta was already shrinking by the late 90s). It was barely holding steady, meanwhile Surrey next door was booming. Delta, for those who don't know, is comprised of North Delta, Ladner, and Tsawassen, which are essentially town centres but have no status of their own, quite unique amongst Metro Van cities. Anyways, starting in 2010 growth turned positive, and never once shrank again. And most of those years had health growth of over 1% a year or more, and just the last two years has seen growth of 2.1% in 2022 to 3.9% in 2023. Never thought I'd see figures that high from stodgy old Delta, one of the hotbeds of older people with nothing better to do and strong opinions, especially Ladner... Yet here we are, they somehow started pulling out high growth numbers despite not having any super huge developments or brand new neighbourhoods everywhere like Surrey. Again, these figures don't take in the massive TFN developments, even though for all intents and purposes, that population growth is part of Delta in practical terms, even though not legally. The combined population of Delta + TFN appears to have bottomed out at 100,057 in 2007, but remained around that number for years and years, and flirted ever so closely to under 100,000 but then turned around. It's like some universal force kicked in and changed course before sinking, and combined population of 122,579. Quite the growth rate, up 23% since its 2007 low after years of declines and stagnation. And with such a tight land area to develop (the ALR + Burns Bog takes up so freaking much, the actual allowable developable area is pretty small). It's isolated developable areas separated by expansive farmland, but if you shoved all the built up parts together, it's quite built out. So most growth in Delta (not counting TFN) was from densification and not developing new land.

It is unreal to think how much more land would open up if they amended the ALR, it's bananas. I 100% support preserving Burns Bog, it is a geographic gem, and should be protected as a vulnerable ecosystem. But there's so many parts of the ALR in Delta where there's no farming operations, or at least none that provide much livelihood or serve a rational purpose to be there. Especially the areas bordering industrial land in Tilbury, Boundary Bay, and TFN. There's lots of under-utilized agri land out there, it's just wasted land right in the city, so ridiculous. Same with Richmond, there's like one single dairy farmer left I think. So probably supplies like 0.1% of our dairy needs, yet takes up an area the size of a big subdivision. Ludicrous! Allow more exemptions in areas where it makes sense, like in Richmond, Delta, and Big Bend in Burnaby (no need for that awkward ALR patch near Southridge, Byrne, and Marine Dr., the area is prime for more development, it's not like farming is viable here anyways). The further out you go into the Valley, the more careful the province can be with protecting real viable agricultural land like food processors, large dairy farms, vegetable operations, etc. But the inner urban cities, it should be culled big time, the valuable land being tied up with minimal farm activity is a travesty.
e developments are very well done so far,
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  #47  
Old Posted Jul 7, 2024, 3:04 AM
ecbin ecbin is offline
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It seemed appropriate to bump this thread, rather than start a new one. Metro Vancouver have released their projections through to 2050. There are three scenarios, low, medium and high growth (with medium being the current best guess).

Unlike the last projection (from 2021), in the new one Surrey still won't have overtaken Vancouver's expected 2050 population. (Both would have just under a million residents).

The previous projection saw Metro Vancouver at 3.8m people in 2050, now there could be 4.2m. (The low growth scenario still anticipates 3.98m).

Rounding to the nearest 1,000, the greatest growth in the scenario is obviously Surrey, adding 362,000 to 2050, but the City of Vancouver adds 293,000. Burnaby is expected to add 126,000, Township of Langley 99,000, Coquitlam 94,000 and Richmond 90,000. The entire north shore adds 82,000.
Don't forget New West which sees 79% growth and adds 66k people - for such a little city that's very impressive.

Meanwhile Burnaby's numbers continue to underwhelm compared to its closest neighbours Vancouver (by volume) and New West (by percentage).
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  #48  
Old Posted Jul 7, 2024, 4:23 PM
BaddieB BaddieB is offline
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It is unreal to think how much more land would open up if they amended the ALR, it's bananas. I 100% support preserving Burns Bog, it is a geographic gem, and should be protected as a vulnerable ecosystem.
Hard no. We don't need more sprawl. Every bit of sprawl adds so much in infrastructure costs. Where density becomes cheaper to operate because of economies of scale, the opposite is true of sprawl. We have enough land to build on as it is.
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  #49  
Old Posted Jul 7, 2024, 4:49 PM
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So basically with several big marquee projects like Jericho, Oakridge, the Canada Lands holdings in Oakridge, and River District, the city thinks there is enough new builds (along with densification of existing neighbourhoods) to grow that much?
This is a Metro Vancouver projection, not a City of Vancouver projection. It includes IRs (so Senakw is included) but not UBC. If you look at the report you'll see UBC goes from 29,000 in 2021 to 52,000 in 2050. The City of Vancouver still has a lot of growth potential in the West End, NEFC, the Broadway Corridor, Joyce, Renfrew, Rupert and Commercial SkyTrain precincts, East Hastings corridor, Cambie Corridor as well as the projects you mentioned.

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Originally Posted by zahav View Post
Another area where this is now the case is TFN (Tsawwassen First Nation). If anyone hasn't driven around there yet, go do it, it's crazy how much development is there now and soooo much still to come, it's enormous.
The 2050 total will be 12,000. Percentage increase of a small number always looks impressive, but it's only 0.7% of Metro's total expected growth. A big deal for the TFN, but not much in the big picture.

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Originally Posted by zahav View Post
From 2002 to 2007 (6 years consecutively), Delta shrunk every year. Not by a ton, but still shrunk (the data set I have only goes as far back as 2001, but I think Delta was already shrinking by the late 90s).
Delta's population was already 46,000 in 1971, and rose steadily every census to 97,000 in 2001. It didn't change in 2006, but was at 108,000 by 2021. The Metro projection suggests it will add another 40,000 by 2050.
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  #50  
Old Posted Jul 7, 2024, 6:30 PM
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AFAIK all of Delta's growth is North Delta, which might as well be Surrey; Ladner and Tsawwassen are dragging their heels as always.
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  #51  
Old Posted Jul 8, 2024, 5:49 AM
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Originally Posted by ecbin View Post
Don't forget New West which sees 79% growth and adds 66k people - for such a little city that's very impressive.

Meanwhile Burnaby's numbers continue to underwhelm compared to its closest neighbours Vancouver (by volume) and New West (by percentage).
New West will have the highest growth rate compared to any municipality on the list. (TFN, and the Electoral Area A both UBC and UEL will have higher growth rates but aren't municipalities)

New West's population density was at 2.09 persons/unit in 2021, so at that rate for the medium growth scenario New West would need 28620 units. It'll be interesting to see where that substantial growth happens.

We've got 4700 units at Sapperton Green, and 3700 units max. at Columbia Square. There's no confirmed target unit/population for the 22nd Street "Bold Vision" planning as far as I know, I'd estimate it'll probably be in the ~5000 unit range. I would imagine Sapperton will see a lot of new density as most of it is covered by the TOD radii. Probably a few more thousand units from the full buildout of the lower 12th Street area. When you sprinkle in extra units in the rest of downtown as some of the lower density lots around Columbia station are redeveloped, along with additional density throughout the city, I think I can see how New West might achieve that number of new units. It'll be impressive to see the changes nevertheless.
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  #52  
Old Posted Jul 8, 2024, 8:49 PM
logicbomb logicbomb is offline
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Hard no. We don't need more sprawl. Every bit of sprawl adds so much in infrastructure costs. Where density becomes cheaper to operate because of economies of scale, the opposite is true of sprawl. We have enough land to build on as it is.
It's crazy this perpetually gets proposed.

The ALR's sit on some of the most fertile land in the country. Many fruits and vegetable crops would thrive on the land. Most of our crop imports come from regions that are highly susceptible to the impacts from climate change. This land will come in handy once we see global food scarcity which will undoubtedly happen in the near future.

If anything, we need more protections to keep the land from continuously getting built on or contaminated with fluids from parked commercial vehicles. Seems to be a major issue in Surrey and Richmond with gigantic monster homes being built on these lands with illegal truck operations rendering the lands useless. No levels of government is willing to push back on this though.
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  #53  
Old Posted Jul 8, 2024, 9:39 PM
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It's crazy this perpetually gets proposed.

The ALR's sit on some of the most fertile land in the country. Many fruits and vegetable crops would thrive on the land. Most of our crop imports come from regions that are highly susceptible to the impacts from climate change. This land will come in handy once we see global food scarcity which will undoubtedly happen in the near future.

If anything, we need more protections to keep the land from continuously getting built on or contaminated with fluids from parked commercial vehicles. Seems to be a major issue in Surrey and Richmond with gigantic monster homes being built on these lands with illegal truck operations rendering the lands useless. No levels of government is willing to push back on this though.
What do you mean by “near future”? We are getting closer and closer to having farm towers as a viable alternative to vast fields. We can grow meat now.
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  #54  
Old Posted Jul 8, 2024, 9:42 PM
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Originally Posted by Migrant_Coconut View Post
AFAIK all of Delta's growth is North Delta, which might as well be Surrey; Ladner and Tsawwassen are dragging their heels as always.
The new Delta OCP aims for much more growth in S. Delta (already happening - see Century Group's proposal for the Tsawwassen Town Centre Mall), but yes N. Delta is where the majority of growth will and should occur (better connectivity to the region).
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  #55  
Old Posted Jul 8, 2024, 11:19 PM
GMasterAres GMasterAres is offline
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Originally Posted by BaddieB View Post
Vancouver is definitely going to surpass 1 million by 2050 with the rate of development with the Broadway Plan and new TOD zones (which will probably stay around even if they are scrapped provincially). Vancouver has been outbuilding Surrey for the past few years and this is a trend that will definitely continue as City Hall tilts more pro-development.
Agreed. One thing that I started noticing is even in areas like East Van along 1st avenue, you can see old houses being torn down and replaced with multi-storey buildings. That can increase density super quickly in an area.

Part of the challenge in Surrey is the large amounts of spaces so a lot of the development is still townhouse/rowhome centric. We're only in the past 5 years starting to see a pick-up in low/medium/high rise development in areas like Surrey Central and Guildford with proposals in other areas finally.

So definitely if Vancouver maintains pro-development push to address the housing crisis, it will likely continue to grow faster than Surrey population wise.

A lot of people see % population increases and think that means catching up but that isn't always the case because it is % of existing. So Vancouver can have a much lower % of population increase but the actual number is > Surrey and other cities simply because they have more population.

For those confused, 10% of 100,000 (10,000) is a smaller number than 5% of 250,000 (12,500). Most people I find have no idea how to read statistics and go "10% > 5% therefore the first is growing faster."

Surrey still has a higher percentage of population growth than Vancouver by a fair amount, but Vancouver has a much higher base population so it's lesser growth number still translates to more actual humans and therefore faster population growth. I was down by Vanier Park just on Sunday (first time downtownish area in honestly a few years since I live out in the Fraser Valley) and I was floored at the growth around Kits, Main near Science World, Broadway, etc. Like I said above, even driving down 1st Ave was pretty wow just in a few years.

Now if Vancouver can just solve it's ridiculous permitting and development charges that make all those units double or more the price of equal everywhere else in the region, then there'd be no excuses. Then again, clearly there are some people on this planet that can afford $2 million townhouses I guess so what do I know.
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  #56  
Old Posted Dec 19, 2024, 4:47 PM
jollyburger jollyburger is online now
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Now he knows why they need density along the Broadway Corridor.

Quote:
DouglasTodd
@DouglasTodd
·
15h
Metro Vancouver's population will hit 4 million by 2045.
That’s 40% higher than the previous projection, says
@MetroVancouver
.
50k new residents expected per year.
"Most from outside Canada."
Traffic congestion. Housing. Infrastructure.
https://x.com/DouglasTodd/status/1869544848107471108
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