[Saint John] Uptown Thread

[adamuptownsj]

Originally Posted by JakeNB

What is wrong with City administration/management?
- Skating oval won't be operational for at least a "month and a half" as per the Mayor. [Fredericton had its new skating oval at Officer's Square open last weekend].
- It's December and the pedway stairs project is still incomplete. Was supposed to have been done in Oct - which was ridiculous to begin with.
- Market Square patios are still not complete; heating systems are incomplete and they are still using picnic tables.
- Homeless issue continues to fester; the promised Green zones were supposed to be announced in November and this hasn't been done.

Why is our municipal government so seemingly incompetent. Is it the staff or the politicians or both who are the problem?

It's both. The city should be under provincial management like it was in much of the 2010s.

[ivegotaname]

Less cars uptown and more pedestrian friendly streets is what i want. Movie theatre uptown is another thing id like to see return as all the great citys of canada all have one in there downtowns. Tired of having to drive all the way east to do anything remotely entertaining need shops uptown to open. Dont see people flying or traveling far distances just so they can eat seafood in our many restaurants we need to grow more then what area 506 is

[JakeNB]

Originally Posted by ivegotaname

Less cars uptown and more pedestrian friendly streets is what i want. Movie theatre uptown is another thing id like to see return as all the great citys of canada all have one in there downtowns. Tired of having to drive all the way east to do anything remotely entertaining need shops uptown to open. Dont see people flying or traveling far distances just so they can eat seafood in our many restaurants we need to grow more then what area 506 is

Saint John has the opportunity to create NB's only Theatre District at King's Square with the Imperial and the SJTC Courthouse theatre project as anchors. A movie theatre (IMAX) could be constructed on the Kings Square North. With Billy's, a new restaurant on the ground floor of the Admiral Beatty (where one was previously) and possibly a restaurant/bar on the street level of the 91 King project, Saint John could build something which would draw locals and tourists. The essential pieces are there - it just takes imagination and encouragement from the local government,

[EnvisionSaintJohn]

Originally Posted by JakeNB

Saint John has the opportunity to create NB's only Theatre District at King's Square with the Imperial and the SJTC Courthouse theatre project as anchors. A movie theatre (IMAX) could be constructed on the Kings Square North. With Billy's, a new restaurant on the ground floor of the Admiral Beatty (where one was previously) and possibly a restaurant/bar on the street level of the 91 King project, Saint John could build something which would draw locals and tourists. The essential pieces are there - it just takes imagination and encouragement from the local government,

A real IMAX would be tremendous Uptown. The one Dieppe is getting is a LieMax (barely bigger screen than what they already had and no upgrade to laser or 70mm projector) there remains an opportunity for the first real IMAX in NB to be built here in NB. Some big corporate donation could make it happen pretty quickly… but it could also be built as part of some sort of Uptown Exhibition site for the NB Museum.

As for the outdoor skating rink… that’s just sad, should have been open before Christmas, and if they say it will be open in a few months, I’d guess it’s not open this winter again. It was supposed to open in 2023!


Still think the bigger missed opportunity is the legacy project from the Memorial Cup… the outdoor hockey rink that they only let people use for ball hockey, and keep locked up during the winter— instead of flooding it and letting people use it for outdoor hockey.

Toronto’s 50+ outdoor hockey rinks are all open now. Saint John really can’t get one outdoor hockey rink built?

[sailor734]

Originally Posted by EnvisionSaintJohn

A real IMAX would be tremendous Uptown. The one Dieppe is getting is a LieMax (barely bigger screen than what they already had and no upgrade to laser or 70mm projector) there remains an opportunity for the first real IMAX in NB to be built here in NB. Some big corporate donation could make it happen pretty quickly… but it could also be built as part of some sort of Uptown Exhibition site for the NB Museum.

As for the outdoor skating rink… that’s just sad, should have been open before Christmas, and if they say it will be open in a few months, I’d guess it’s not open this winter again. It was supposed to open in 2023!


Still think the bigger missed opportunity is the legacy project from the Memorial Cup… the outdoor hockey rink that they only let people use for ball hockey, and keep locked up during the winter— instead of flooding it and letting people use it for outdoor hockey.

Toronto’s 50+ outdoor hockey rinks are all open now. Saint John really can’t get one outdoor hockey rink built?

I didn't even know that outdoor rink existed. Warmer winters certainly make outdoor rinks less practical but if it is there why not use it when we can. How much effort is involved on sending a couple of city workers out to flood it when a cold snap is forecast? .....close it during thaws and then open again when it refreezes.

I grew up on the Westside by Beaconsfield School. What is now a soccer field across from the school was always an outdoor rink for public skating. It even had a warming hut complete with a canteen. There was a hockey rink with boards, nets and lights extending off it in a L shape that ran towards Buena Vista Ave. It drew big crowds on winter evenings.

[Pugsley]

Originally Posted by EnvisionSaintJohn

As for the outdoor skating rink… that’s just sad, should have been open before Christmas, and if they say it will be open in a few months, I’d guess it’s not open this winter again. It was supposed to open in 2023!

If I understand the engineering involved, this likely has an underground coolant system in order to keep the ice frozen - something Fredericton may not need as it is colder there and not exposed to warm water along a salty and ice-free bay. Many of Toronto's outdoor facilities use these as the average temperatures are above freezing many days in winter. Perhaps they are simply running into some technical issues as this is the first year of operation. I am sure that there is a reasonable explanation and my guess is that it is likely due to the above being a factor - where the contractor is likely testing and modifying things for first-time use. I don't think there is another example in Atlantic Canada where an ice rink with coolant is in operation so close to the ocean. So, I suspect there are tweaks being made.

[gtsoc]

Originally Posted by JakeNB

What is wrong with City administration/management?
- It's December and the pedway stairs project is still incomplete. Was supposed to have been done in Oct - which was ridiculous to begin with.

After what seems like 7.5 months, the entire pedway is now open to all foot traffic.

[Taeolas]

Originally Posted by Pugsley

If I understand the engineering involved, this likely has an underground coolant system in order to keep the ice frozen - something Fredericton may not need as it is colder there and not exposed to warm water along a salty and ice-free bay. Many of Toronto's outdoor facilities use these as the average temperatures are above freezing many days in winter. Perhaps they are simply running into some technical issues as this is the first year of operation. I am sure that there is a reasonable explanation and my guess is that it is likely due to the above being a factor - where the contractor is likely testing and modifying things for first-time use. I don't think there is another example in Atlantic Canada where an ice rink with coolant is in operation so close to the ocean. So, I suspect there are tweaks being made.

Freddy actually has 2 outdoor rinks with cooling, so they can keep the rinks open even during warm spells.

The first was the Naasis rink on the north side, near the Superstore. I think it inherited the cooling system from one of the arenas (Lady Beaverbrook?) when it was renovated.

The other is the ring at Officers Square that opened for skating last year (and for this year last week). That is a brand new coolant system. The Officer Square renovations intentionally planned on a refrigerated rink to allow for longer skating times.

[Pugsley]

Originally Posted by Taeolas

Freddy actually has 2 outdoor rinks with cooling, so they can keep the rinks open even during warm spells.

The first was the Naasis rink on the north side, near the Superstore. I think it inherited the cooling system from one of the arenas (Lady Beaverbrook?) when it was renovated.

The other is the ring at Officers Square that opened for skating last year (and for this year last week). That is a brand new coolant system. The Officer Square renovations intentionally planned on a refrigerated rink to allow for longer skating times.

Ok, wasn't aware of that. However, one could argue this is likely the first of such an outdoor rink with a coolant system so close to a warm salt water source, like this one in Saint John. Potentially a first time install so maybe some unforeseen headaches related to it. Either way, it is the first year, so I suspect delays should be expected as they get things up and running.

[cdnguys]

Originally Posted by Pugsley

Ok, wasn't aware of that. However, one could argue this is likely the first of such an outdoor rink with a coolant system so close to a warm salt water source, like this one in Saint John. Potentially a first time install so maybe some unforeseen headaches related to it. Either way, it is the first year, so I suspect delays should be expected as they get things up and running.

It’s not the first year though, it’s the second winter season it was built, but not used.

[Pugsley]

Originally Posted by cdnguys

It’s not the first year though, it’s the second winter season it was built, but not used.

Well, it is the first year that it would accessible for use and turned on, I mean.... c'mon.

[sailor734]

If it was completed last winter you would think they would have turned it on and run some tests even if it wasn't accessible for public use due to other construction around it.

Unfortunately, when it comes to City of Saint John run projects, it is pretty easy to believe somebody dropped the ball

[cdnguys]

Originally Posted by sailor734

If it was completed last winter you would think they would have turned it on and run some tests even if it wasn't accessible for public use due to other construction around it.

Unfortunately, when it comes to City of Saint John run projects, it is pretty easy to believe somebody dropped the ball

The city already took heat from last year when it was expected to open late 2023, then set new expectation of early 2024, then changed it to next winter season, and here we are delayed again. I’m curious to know reason, but at the very least there should be transparency and just tell public what issue is.

[EnvisionSaintJohn]

Originally Posted by sailor734

I didn't even know that outdoor rink existed. Warmer winters certainly make outdoor rinks less practical but if it is there why not use it when we can. How much effort is involved on sending a couple of city workers out to flood it when a cold snap is forecast? .....close it during thaws and then open again when it refreezes.

I grew up on the Westside by Beaconsfield School. What is now a soccer field across from the school was always an outdoor rink for public skating. It even had a warming hut complete with a canteen. There was a hockey rink with boards, nets and lights extending off it in a L shape that ran towards Buena Vista Ave. It drew big crowds on winter evenings.

I guess it's kind of hidden. It's located under the viaduct, which is supposedly the reason why we "aren't allowed" to flood it during the winter. (because the DOT says there's too great of a risk of falling snow and ice during snowplowing, the DOT stipulated it can't be used during the winter )



The risk of falling ice and snow during snow clearing sounds like complete BS to me... There's parts of the Harbour Passage system that under the viaduct that aren't "shut down" because of the risk of falling ice and snow. It would be pretty easy for the city to implement a mandatory helmet policy. The better option, however, would be to build a roof over the rink. A slanted white roof would serve to keep the ice surface shielded from the suns rays (along with the viaduct), and also keep the facility open during rainy days for ball hockey in the summer and shinny in the winter. Yeah, we'll probably need a chiller eventually too, but it's not like it's not cold enough there for a few weeks of natural ice between December and February.



This project cost $500,000, and was mainly funded by the City of Saint John, the main funder of the 2022 Memorial Cup. Most of the people on the Memorial Cup committee, however, lived outside of Saint John, and they were the ones who made the decision to fund this legacy project, including where it is, how it would be maintained, and even how it would be used to some extent, for I believe 5 years, after which it would be entirely up to the City of Saint John to maintain it and operate it.



There was a distinct lack of foresight not building this concrete pad with the coils built in, and with a chiller in mind for future installation. Moreover, not designing it with a roof in the first place was a bad decision. Saint John is a rainy city, which should have been reason enough to build a roof. The DOT's BS about falling ice and snow from the viaduct... that should have made them go back to the drawing board and add on a roof.

If Toronto operates more than 50 outdoor hockey rinks with chillers, Saint John can find a way to operate one. This upcoming Uptown Rink will be nice for skating, but it's freaking tiny, and it's not going to be a place for people to play hockey. I believe the City of Saint John is funding a new cricket pitch to be constructed to the tune of $250,000. If we can find the money in the budget for that, I think we can try and find some funding partners, and find some money in the budget to build a roof over this impressive facility so that it doesn't stay locked up all winter. Ice hockey is Canada's national winter sport, after all. Yet, there's not a single outdoor hockey rink with boards left standing in Saint John, except this one, which the city keeps locked up all winter!

Only in Saint John would we find some convoluted reason to keep a half a million dollar hockey facility locked up for the duration of winter...

[EnvisionSaintJohn]

Originally Posted by cdnguys

The city already took heat from last year when it was expected to open late 2023, then set new expectation of early 2024, then changed it to next winter season, and here we are delayed again. I’m curious to know reason, but at the very least there should be transparency and just tell public what issue is.

I think the city should take even more heat for their outdoor ice strategy which continues to exclusively focus on Lily Lake until this Uptown rink is actually opened.

The city insists on using heavy machinery to clear off the skating surface at Lily Lake, which the say requires 18 inches of ice to operate this machinery safely!

Last year, the City wasted countless man hours and equipment expenses actually trying to FLOOD the frozen lake, in a mostly futile effort to build up the ice to 18 inches to enable the safe use of heavy machinery on the lake. Lily Lake's ice clearing could be done by volunteers, and maybe some light machinery and help from city workers. Like, how the hell do they think they maintained a skating surface at Lily Lake in the 1960's? I very much doubt they were using heavy machinery to clear off the skating surface back then.

It's pretty frustrating to think what the city could have done with those labour hours and equipment costs in a more productive way than their Lily Lake nonsense. They could have instead flooded outdoor rinks on city owned park lands where rinks used to be like at Beaconsfield, other fields and parks, and/or flooded the Memorial Cup Ball Hockey Arena.

Instead, I think Lily Lake was open for less than week of skating last year, but city crews spent more than a month trying to build up and ice and beat mother nature. There's no 18 inch ice thickness requirement for outdoor rinks on top of dry land. The city needs to give its head a shake.

meanwhile in Moncton:



They have a smart, community volunteer oriented strategy that puts the onus on communities to step up and get these rinks up and running... basically the exact opposite of what the City of Saint John does with Lily Lake.

If the Lily Lake skating/hockey surface was mostly maintained by community volunteers and without the use of heavy machinery, it would be open a lot longer each winter (no need to wait for 18 inches of ice) and it would probably be far better maintained. Really though, the focus should be on community outdoor rinks run by volunteers with some some minimal assistance and funding from the city.

There's no need to overcomplicate something so simple, and so Canadian.

[bingun]

They are attempting some kind of testing of the system based on it being blocked off and semi-flooded.

Also, see the Zamboni garage, which I believe will be moved shortly.

[sjuser23]

Originally Posted by adamuptownsj

It's both. The city should be under provincial management like it was in much of the 2010s.

That never happened. Not sure where you heard that but it’s false.

You’re also complaining about city projects that are built by the private sector, not public sector so is it the project you don’t like or the work of contractors?

[sailor734]

Originally Posted by sjuser23

That never happened. Not sure where you heard that but it’s false.

You’re also complaining about city projects that are built by the private sector, not public sector so is it the project you don’t like or the work of contractors?

Regardless the city is still responsible for setting the terms of the contract and monitoring to ensure the terms are met. City controls and management of this project were/are very poor.

[EnvisionSaintJohn]

Originally Posted by sjuser23

That never happened. Not sure where you heard that but it’s false.

You’re also complaining about city projects that are built by the private sector, not public sector so is it the project you don’t like or the work of contractors?

The whole region should be amalgamated into one municipality by the province. Follow that up with comprehensive tax reform, and the Saint John Region will be set up long term, sustained success.

[bingun]

Suwanna's new uptown location on Germain is progressing nicely. The window coverings have been taken down, and if you walk by during the day while the contractors are working, you can get a great look inside. I won't spoil it for them, but they have clearly invested substantially in renovating this unit.

If progress continues, I could see this opening in January or February.