SAN ANTONIO | Spurs Arena Downtown

[SpiritofSeguin]

Somewhat recent video about Project Marvel. The basic point is that it should be done in pieces as opposed to one super project, that the project might even run out of money and be forced to rely on taxpayers to get across the finish line (which is not what the City is saying). There's value to the argument, the convention center at the least must be expanded upon to keep business and related events coming back. The sports can could be kicked...even more down the line. Frankly this whole idea might be put on stop next year anyway, let's see how things play out.

Also, this website is such a horrifically broken mess on mobile. Nonstop ads popping up and then crashes on loop.

[JACKinBeantown]

Originally Posted by SpiritofSeguin

Somewhat recent video about Project Marvel. The basic point is that it should be done in pieces as opposed to one super project, that the project might even run out of money and be forced to rely on taxpayers to get across the finish line (which is not what the City is saying). There's value to the argument, the convention center at the least must be expanded upon to keep business and related events coming back. The sports can could be kicked...even more down the line. Frankly this whole idea might be put on stop next year anyway, let's see how things play out.

Also, this website is such a horrifically broken mess on mobile. Nonstop ads popping up and then crashes on loop.

I generally agree with him. The timeframe is long and the Alamodome is the whale that could sink the boat. Better to go for the Spurs arena, music venue, hotel, and local upgrades first. Then consider the land bridge and Alamodome. Don't get me wrong, the land bridge would be amazing and I'm all for it, but if this goes to a vote, San Antonians will vote it down because they won't be able to drive their cars on the land bridge.

[sirkingwilliam]

It’s not getting voted down if it goes to a vote. No chance in hell it gets voted down.

[jaga185]

Originally Posted by JACKinBeantown

...but if this goes to a vote, San Antonians will vote it down because they won't be able to drive their cars on the land bridge.

I cackled.



The number of people whining about where they can park their cars as if there are many lots on this site and there won't be parking garages built to accommodate them. Education is key. I assumed it would be built in segments because this project is grand and would be a lot of money to build at one time... but also I'm like, do it...

[JACKinBeantown]

I was in SA for Xmas and went to see the Spurs play Portland on ugly sweater night. Wemby got 10 blocks! Anyway...

Parking at the Frost Bank Center is horrendous. There is nothing in the neighborhood for visitors... only local residents' houses and a few small local shops. San Antonio absolutely needs a new arena downtown.

[SpiritofSeguin]

I think if you asked San Antonio to vote on Project Marvel today, it would fail by 60-40. There needs to be a serious PR push on television, radio and etc to sell to the public that this concept absolutely wouldn't rely on taxpayer monies which is frankly the reason people are so against it and I have yet to see any billboards or commercials about Project Marvel. People want a reason to come downtown which so many still wrongly believe is a boarded up dangerous filthy place. Ron Nirenberg the unfortunately lame duck (I think he's been a solid and honest mayor especially during COVID) should personally be leading the campaign with the term he has left, legacy moment like Hardberger with the parks or Castro with the streetcar—er, maybe not.

On the other hand, if there isn't an actual plan in place for what would actually be done with the Frost Bank Center post-Spurs that isn't just saying oh we're gonna invest in the neighborhood (you need actual developers with schematics ready to present to build housing or something there, not just talk), East Side residents would vote against it cause why would they lose their main bargaining chip to get money flowing to the area? If I felt like as a resident that my side of town was just going to be abandoned for downtown after 20 years of what was originally sold not meeting what was promised, I wouldn’t vote for it either.

My personal expectation pending the May election is that the only things that will be open by 2029 will be an expansion of the Convention Center, juicing up the Alamodome (again) and the UTSA School of Hospitality, NCAA or not. It really depends on a COSA campaign to promote it and what the economy looks like by next summer if people are going to pinch their pennies harder and therefore just won't go along with what's being proposed regardless because they think COSA will go back on their word and use some kind of taxpayer monies.

But yes. San Antonio parking does indeed suck.

[sirkingwilliam]

Originally Posted by SpiritofSeguin

I think if you asked San Antonio to vote on Project Marvel today, it would fail by 60-40. There needs to be a serious PR push on television, radio and etc to sell to the public that this concept absolutely wouldn't rely on taxpayer monies which is frankly the reason people are so against it and I have yet to see any billboards or commercials about Project Marvel. People want a reason to come downtown which so many still wrongly believe is a boarded up dangerous filthy place. Ron Nirenberg the unfortunately lame duck (I think he's been a solid and honest mayor especially during COVID) should personally be leading the campaign with the term he has left, legacy moment like Hardberger with the parks or Castro with the streetcar—er, maybe not.

On the other hand, if there isn't an actual plan in place for what would actually be done with the Frost Bank Center post-Spurs that isn't just saying oh we're gonna invest in the neighborhood (you need actual developers with schematics ready to present to build housing or something there, not just talk), East Side residents would vote against it cause why would they lose their main bargaining chip to get money flowing to the area? If I felt like as a resident that my side of town was just going to be abandoned for downtown after 20 years of what was originally sold not meeting what was promised, I wouldn’t vote for it either.

My personal expectation pending the May election is that the only things that will be open by 2029 will be an expansion of the Convention Center, juicing up the Alamodome (again) and the UTSA School of Hospitality, NCAA or not. It really depends on a COSA campaign to promote it and what the economy looks like by next summer if people are going to pinch their pennies harder and therefore just won't go along with what's being proposed regardless because they think COSA will go back on their word and use some kind of taxpayer monies.

But yes. San Antonio parking does indeed suck.

Where are you pulling that absurd percentage of 60/40? The thin air it seems. What facts at all are you basing that on? I ca. tell you just from recent trends any vote would pass with flying colors.

[AwesomeSAView]

Thank you Sirkingwilliam!
SpiritofSeguin does seem to pull numbers out of the sky. This is not the first time.

[SpiritofSeguin]

Originally Posted by sirkingwilliam

Where are you pulling that absurd percentage of 60/40? The thin air it seems. What facts at all are you basing that on? I ca. tell you just from recent trends any vote would pass with flying colors.

The University of Texas at San Antonio, actually. In September of this year.

“692 Bexar County voters expressed limited support for a new basketball arena in downtown San Antonio. UTSA’s survey showed that 41% of voters said they would not be in favor of a new Spurs arena moving to downtown San Antonio. About 36% of voters said they were in favor, almost 12% had no opinion and about 11% were not sure.

Voters also expressed limited support for a minor league baseball facility in downtown San Antonio. About 40% of voters said they would be in favor of a new ballpark for the San Antonio Missions, and 35% said they would not be in favor of this. The rest of the poll’s respondents were not sure or did not have an opinion.”

Compared to a UTSA poll from June that sampled 633 Bexar County voters where the vote was almost evenly split 36 percent for and against a Spurs arena, opposition has seemingly grown. And in that poll, more than a third of the reason cited for being opposed was…wait for it…the burden it would have on taxpayers.

Now, what facts if any are you basing the idea that there’s “no chance in hell” Project Marvel would not be passed? What ‘recent trends’ are you talking about? The Spurs themselves are apparently hosting an internal poll of their own as recently as a week ago but the results are not public at this time…but if there were to be an intense public relations campaign by COSA in the five months between New Years Day and the May election, that 11 percent of not sure voters in that existing UTSA poll I just cited? Could flip to yes and you’d get a brand new Spurs arena.

But what do I know? Out of the thin air it seems I make stuff up. I wonder what the poll results exclusively from Soap Factory/Robert Lee apartment tenants would look like. I bet they’re thrilled! Not like they just watched a 32 story high rise apartment go up across the street from them and are reading on the news that same developer has their eye on them as well.

Originally Posted by AwesomeSAView

SpiritofSeguin does seem to pull numbers out of the sky. This is not the first time.

And a Happy New Year to you too!

[Tornado]

That September poll was before project marvel was presented to the city. I agree that there needs to be a solid plan in place for frost bank center. if the new arena doesn’t happen, you better believe a move up 35 could happen after the lease runs out.

[bosshaa5]

Originally Posted by SpiritofSeguin

On the other hand, if there isn't an actual plan in place for what would actually be done with the Frost Bank Center post-Spurs that isn't just saying oh we're gonna invest in the neighborhood (you need actual developers with schematics ready to present to build housing or something there, not just talk), East Side residents would vote against it cause why would they lose their main bargaining chip to get money flowing to the area? If I felt like as a resident that my side of town was just going to be abandoned for downtown after 20 years of what was originally sold not meeting what was promised, I wouldn’t vote for it either.

I think you're making good points but I do feel you are overstating the impact of the East Side. The Frost Bank Center site was chosen because it was cheap, available land the County already had in a largely warehouse district. Some residents in the area may even be relieved to see the Spurs go.

The truth is a basketball arena was never going to incentivize development on the East Side especially when you put a moat of parking around the entire facility. There was nothing going on in this area to begin with. Arenas don't typically catalyze development in this way. The ideal placement of an amenity such as a sports arena is to integrate it into a dense urban fabric. This provides an amenity to development already occurring, creating a snowball effect. Chase Arena in San Francisco is a good example of this.

It's true the resistance coalition is mobilizing already, and their main battle-cry is that the city keeps promising transformative projects that cost a lot and don't deliver. The great irony is that this finally does have the potential to transform downtown. Hemisfair is already a wonderful, expansive public space, and it is not even built out yet. There is also significant residential and commercial development occurring in Lavaca/Southtown just across the street.

Personally, I find it hard to believe TxDOT would permit a land bridge over I-37. I hope I am wrong, though.

[sirkingwilliam]

Originally Posted by SpiritofSeguin

The University of Texas at San Antonio, actually. In September of this year.

“692 Bexar County voters expressed limited support for a new basketball arena in downtown San Antonio. UTSA’s survey showed that 41% of voters said they would not be in favor of a new Spurs arena moving to downtown San Antonio. About 36% of voters said they were in favor, almost 12% had no opinion and about 11% were not sure.

Voters also expressed limited support for a minor league baseball facility in downtown San Antonio. About 40% of voters said they would be in favor of a new ballpark for the San Antonio Missions, and 35% said they would not be in favor of this. The rest of the poll’s respondents were not sure or did not have an opinion.”

Compared to a UTSA poll from June that sampled 633 Bexar County voters where the vote was almost evenly split 36 percent for and against a Spurs arena, opposition has seemingly grown. And in that poll, more than a third of the reason cited for being opposed was…wait for it…the burden it would have on taxpayers.

Now, what facts if any are you basing the idea that there’s “no chance in hell” Project Marvel would not be passed? What ‘recent trends’ are you talking about? The Spurs themselves are apparently hosting an internal poll of their own as recently as a week ago but the results are not public at this time…but if there were to be an intense public relations campaign by COSA in the five months between New Years Day and the May election, that 11 percent of not sure voters in that existing UTSA poll I just cited? Could flip to yes and you’d get a brand new Spurs arena.

But what do I know? Out of the thin air it seems I make stuff up. I wonder what the poll results exclusively from Soap Factory/Robert Lee apartment tenants would look like. I bet they’re thrilled! Not like they just watched a 32 story high rise apartment go up across the street from them and are reading on the news that same developer has their eye on them as well.



And a Happy New Year to you too! :D

Dear lord. You posted that with your whole chest as if it proved something. It doesn’t.

First off, the question in this surgery wasn’t even concerning funding. Did you seem to miss that part. Your use of this survey to support your claim is already null and void. But besides that.

A sample size of 692 people including Bexar county residents? Any vote if there is a vote for some kind of funding, and who is to even say there will be, will be done by the city of San Antonio, and will only include city residents. This again null and voids your claim.

I can continue to go on and on and point out what seems to be a bias with regard to your narrative and agenda regarding this, but that’s too obvious and not needed.

As for recent trends… I’ll go with all the recent economic votes that passed with flying colors as the basis for my claim, including the uncapping of the city managers salary.

If you honestly think a vote to raise or use a tourist tax for a new Spurs arena or whatever funding mechanism potentially would need a vote, would get a no vote in San Antonio, then I’m sorry, there’s a part of your anatomy above your shoulders that may need to be examined.

[SpiritofSeguin]

Originally Posted by sirkingwilliam

I can continue to go on and on and point out what seems to be a bias with regard to your narrative and agenda regarding this, but that’s too obvious and not needed.

If you honestly think a vote to raise or use a tourist tax for a new Spurs arena or whatever funding mechanism potentially would need a vote, would get a no vote in San Antonio, then I’m sorry, there’s a part of your anatomy above your shoulders that may need to be examined.

If you go back just one page, I was actually the first person to post photos of the Project Marvel presentation as it was still going on. You are never going to find a bigger advocate for downtown development in me, someone who actually remembers the days of plywood-covered vacant businesses and where aggressive crimes like robbery and assault occurred where the old Jail/Milam Park is, and were common and not every single incident made the six o’clock news. And this was a decade before a network of security cameras or Centro quality of life Ambassadors or Crisis Response Teams or homeless outreach groups trying to turn the tide. If you were homeless ten years ago and your Greyhound dumped you here and you didn’t know about the Haven or other resources offhand, chances are? You were fucked! And if you weren’t a grown man, I could effectively argue you were not safe walking around downtown alone or without means to protect yourself. And this unfortunately goes back many years to when freshly graduated GI’s on their dates were told to avoid the Riverwalk because of safety concerns (post WW2, pre-Hemisfair).

I actually went to the Rivercenter Mall, rode the buses, got snacks and drinks at the Dollar General on Commerce with its security guard and it’s locked up merchandise which is today gone and replaced by the modern San Pedro Creek plaza and Texas Public Radio headquarters. The ONLY reason that ever happened is because people actually invested and gave San Antonio a second look, and didn’t just dismiss it as a struggling poverty-stricken city that seemingly isn’t even worthy of a damn rail transit system let alone anything new or interesting like a Vegas Sphere or, yes, a brand new sports stadium.

Now, people who want their agendas to see reality don’t attack and say to their imaginary foes that they need their heads examined for daring to ask questions about what is ultimately an untested speculative megaproject that all parties involved still need to put the work in to get done and convince people to support it at the ballot box. God forbid voters have questions, which last time I checked in the United States of America is protected by something called ‘the freedom of speech’. What a beautiful thing.

Question for you, would you go to one of the Soap Factory tenant meetings and tell all those dozens of people whose primary concern above anything else is being homeless (many a second time who consider themselves lucky to have housing again even if it’s subpar) that they all need their heads examined and they’re all in cahoots with nefarious agendas. You think hearts and votes are won in that way, hmm?

Happy New Year!

[sirkingwilliam]

Originally Posted by SpiritofSeguin

If you go back just one page, I was actually the first person to post photos of the Project Marvel presentation as it was still going on. You are never going to find a bigger advocate for downtown development in me, someone who actually remembers the days of plywood-covered vacant businesses and where aggressive crimes like robbery and assault occurred where the old Jail/Milam Park is, and were common and not every single incident made the six o’clock news. And this was a decade before a network of security cameras or Centro quality of life Ambassadors or Crisis Response Teams or homeless outreach groups trying to turn the tide. If you were homeless ten years ago and your Greyhound dumped you here and you didn’t know about the Haven or other resources offhand, chances are? You were fucked! And if you weren’t a grown man, I could effectively argue you were not safe walking around downtown alone or without means to protect yourself. And this unfortunately goes back many years to when freshly graduated GI’s on their dates were told to avoid the Riverwalk because of safety concerns (post WW2, pre-Hemisfair).

I actually went to the Rivercenter Mall, rode the buses, got snacks and drinks at the Dollar General on Commerce with its security guard and it’s locked up merchandise which is today gone and replaced by the modern San Pedro Creek plaza and Texas Public Radio headquarters. The ONLY reason that ever happened is because people actually invested and gave San Antonio a second look, and didn’t just dismiss it as a struggling poverty-stricken city that seemingly isn’t even worthy of a damn rail transit system let alone anything new or interesting like a Vegas Sphere or, yes, a brand new sports stadium.

Now, people who want their agendas to see reality don’t attack and say to their imaginary foes that they need their heads examined for daring to ask questions about what is ultimately an untested speculative megaproject that all parties involved still need to put the work in to get done and convince people to support it at the ballot box. God forbid voters have questions, which last time I checked in the United States of America is protected by something called ‘the freedom of speech’. What a beautiful thing.

Question for you, would you go to one of the Soap Factory tenant meetings and tell all those dozens of people whose primary concern above anything else is being homeless (many a second time who consider themselves lucky to have housing again even if it’s subpar) that they all need their heads examined and they’re all in cahoots with nefarious agendas. You think hearts and votes are won in that way, hmm?

Happy New Year!

I never questioned your love for development or seeing the city grow. I said you had an agenda.

This is the second time you’ve brought up the Soap Factory. That’s the agenda I was hinting at.

Soap Factory has NOTHING to do with the Spurs arena or Project Marvel. So you bringing it up over and over again is a strawman.

Also, just for your own benefit and for future reference, freedom of speech has nothing at all to do with asking questions or being afforded the right to ask questions. Freedom of speech pertains solely to the government. Freedoms of speech allows us to express ideas and thoughts and say things without having to worry about the government retaliating or arresting you. It has NOTHING to do with asking questions on an online message board or at an open board meeting that is intended to be where you ask questions.

I’m not going to get into a tangent about the Soap factory situation. It’s pointless in this discussion about the Spurs arena. It’s pointless in a discussion about a hypothetical vote for funding.

[JACKinBeantown]

University of Texas at San Antonio gets approval to demolish Institute of Texas Cultures

The demolition permit could mean that a new Spurs arena is one step closer to reality.

San Antonio News
By Michael Karlis on Fri, Dec 20, 2024 at 4:29 pm

Link to article:
https://www.sacurrent.com/news/universit...ish-institute-of-texas-cultures-36342228


If they implode it, I will fly to SA to watch.

https://giphy.com/gifs/rgq4Sar77s85W

[SpiritofSeguin]

Originally Posted by JACKinBeantown

University of Texas at San Antonio gets approval to demolish Institute of Texas Cultures

The demolition permit could mean that a new Spurs arena is one step closer to reality.

San Antonio News
By Michael Karlis on Fri, Dec 20, 2024 at 4:29 pm

Link to article:
https://www.sacurrent.com/news/universit...ish-institute-of-texas-cultures-36342228


If they implode it, I will fly to SA to watch.

https://giphy.com/gifs/rgq4Sar77s85W

That would be hilarious if they rigged a building that’s barely taller than a HEB Plus to blow up Vegas-style. As long as there’s fireworks, I’m game.

[JACKinBeantown]

Originally Posted by SpiritofSeguin

That would be hilarious if they rigged a building that’s barely taller than a HEB Plus to blow up Vegas-style. As long as there’s fireworks, I’m game.

The ITC POS needs to get blown up.

If for no other reason than to make sure some brutalism zealot doesn't duct tape themself to the building to stop the wrecking ball.

[SpiritofSeguin]

Originally Posted by JACKinBeantown

The ITC POS needs to get blown up.

Fireworks, catering provided by Mi Tierras…a mariachi band. XD

[SpiritofSeguin]

Per the San Antonio Report today.

The San Antonio Spurs basketball team owners want public funding for a new downtown arena, but local officials say they haven’t been given an estimate of what the venue would cost or how much private money they would contribute.

Nevertheless, as the deadline nears to put such a proposal out to voters in the May 3 election, this week the San Antonio Spurs LLC submitted language they want Bexar County to use to secure state approval for a ballot measure.

After reviewing the undisclosed request in a closed-door meeting Tuesday, Bexar County Judge Peter Sakai told reporters there was no way he could agree to such an arrangement without more answers from the team.

“If you ask me today, if I will call for a special meeting to consider a venue tax election in May, my answer today is no,” Sakai said. “… We need to know how much this project is going to cost. We haven’t gotten those figures yet.”

Tuesday’s meeting between the county and the Spurs comes as team leaders have been working with the city for more than a year to figure out whether a downtown sports and entertainment district — complete with new basketball arena — would be feasible.

Though the proposed downtown sports and entertainment district, known as “Project Marvel,” got a splashy public unveiling at City Hall in November, some of those involved acknowledge the project has hit a wall when it comes to what can be accomplished behind closed doors.

Both city and county leaders seem eager to make a deal that will ensure the Spurs franchise stays in San Antonio, but Sakai in particular has been hesitant to rush an idea that’s so-far been discussed almost exclusively outside of the public’s view.

“I think the public needs to understand the details, they need to understand the facts, and they certainly need to understand the figures that are going to be used as to how much this project is going to cost,” Sakai said.

A number of other large cities have struggled to secure public support for taxpayer-funded sports venues in recent years, including in Kansas City and Chicago.

In acknowledgement of those struggles, Sakai said Tuesday that it wouldn’t be prudent to take the Spurs arena to voters without being able to provide the full scope of the project and its funding structure.

The deadline to put the proposal on the May 3 ballot is Feb. 14, and information about it must be submitted to the state comptroller even sooner. But another opportunity exists just six months later in November.

“We will continue to gather the necessary information to explore this project throughout 2025,” Sakai said.

Since the county is expected to contribute public funding for the project, Sakai has said any deal with the Spurs hinges on first developing a plan for a “sustainable future” for the county-owned Frost Bank Center on the East Side, where the team currently plays its games.

“If the Spurs are committed to moving downtown, all parties must work together to gather substantial public input,” said Sakai, who assembled a citizens advisory group to gather additional feedback on the East Side redevelopment.

Residents will get their first chance to weigh in on the project at two town hall meetings put together by Commissioner Tommy Calvert (Pct. 4) on Jan. 25 and Feb 1 at the Freeman Coliseum.

“It’s an important time for us to gather input from the community about both downtown and the East Side,” Calvert said. “Things are very preliminary at this stage, and just need more tightening up.”

And per the San Antonio Express News yesterday...

The meeting agenda notes that Bexar County commissioners will discuss “designating the proposed San Antonio Spurs arena as a venue project” and “designating methods of financing the proposed project, subject to voter approval at an election called for such purpose.”

The Texas Local Government Code defines a “venue” as an arena, coliseum, stadium, convention center or other facility that a city or county builds “to accommodate professional and amateur sports events or community events.”
Commissioners will also discuss entering a memorandum of understanding with the city and the Spurs to determine how to make the arena a reality, according to the agenda.

The Spurs have played at the county-owned Frost Bank Center on the East Side since 2002. The county venue tax primarily funded the construction of that $190 million facility after voters agreed to impose a 1.75% tax on hotel rooms and a 5% tax on short-term car rentals in 1999.

The county asked voters in 2008 to use that venue tax to pay for $75 million in upgrades for the Frost Bank Center.

Originally Posted by sirkingwilliam

A sample size of 692 people including Bexar county residents? Any vote if there is a vote for some kind of funding, and who is to even say there will be, will be done by the city of San Antonio, and will only include city residents. This again null and voids your claim.

Again, I haven't seen a single billboard or commercial or bus overlay or PBS interview or anything about Project Marvel. Social media is controlling the narrative and it seems there are more opponents over those in favor. People have the impression this will be some kind of property tax or personal paycheck adventure into their wallets to pay for all of this and that impression will stay with voters all the way to the ballot box if CoSA/Bexar County and the Spurs especially do not start a serious PR campaign if they truly want this to see fruition. If Wemby can do billboards for HEB why can't he do a commercial or radio ad for Project Marvel?

If they really want all of this then they need to start acting like salesmen because people are not convinced and me personally am not impressed, and I actually want Project Marvel. Get out there and do some good old fashioned politicking as Henry B. Gonzalez did the Worlds Fair and Henry Cisneros did the Alamodome.

[sirkingwilliam]

What I said wasn’t false or inaccurate. A city vote for funding would only be voted on by city residents. Bexar county being included is a different story and a vote for county funding would include all residents of Bexar county. Regardless, that vote passes as well. Without a doubt.