Metro Phoenix Dining Thread

[MiEncanto]

Originally Posted by Centralworks

Hopefully they move the chicken joint to the old Honeybears spot on central, since it looks like it still hasn't sold.

There are no plans for that property. It's got many problems and probably needs to be scraped.

[AZSunHiker]

It simply wasn't doing enough business. Their clientele tend to be older and drive cars. And that part of Roosevelt is the hardest to find parking.

92% of US households have access to at least one car. (see link below). I wonder if lack of convenient free parking is a primary driver for the lagging retail in downtown. It certainly is noticeable that thriving shopping centers like Biltmore, Camelback Colonade, Tempe Marketplace, Scottsdale Fashion Square, and others have plentiful, free, and convenient parking.

Source:
https://www.pewresearch.org/short-reads/...%25),have%20three%20or%20more%20vehicles.

[MiEncanto]

Originally Posted by AZSunHiker

92% of US households have access to at least one car. (see link below). I wonder if lack of convenient free parking is a primary driver for the lagging retail in downtown. It certainly is noticeable that thriving shopping centers like Biltmore, Camelback Colonade, Tempe Marketplace, Scottsdale Fashion Square, and others have plentiful, free, and convenient parking.

Source:
https://www.pewresearch.org/short-reads/...%25),have%20three%20or%20more%20vehicles.

Phoenix is so easy to negotiate by car that downtown becomes relatively intimidating to many. I find it bizarre because I think our downtown is ridiculously easy to navigate... but if I had a nickel for every time someone complained about driving downtown I'd be rich. I've had people cancel lunches downtown "because there's no parking there" when there definitely is an easy to use garage attached. It's in the culture and businesses have to be aware of it.

[Obadno]

I have never had a serious issue with parking downtown at any time and I go all the time.

The worst thing is having to pay like 10 bucks but its not hard to find. I can usually park for free and walk a few blocks at most

[exit2lef]

Originally Posted by MiEncanto

I happen to know the owners.

It simply wasn't doing enough business. Their clientele tend to be older and drive cars. And that part of Roosevelt is the hardest to find parking.

Originally Posted by AZSunHiker

92% of US households have access to at least one car. (see link below). I wonder if lack of convenient free parking is a primary driver for the lagging retail in downtown. It certainly is noticeable that thriving shopping centers like Biltmore, Camelback Colonade, Tempe Marketplace, Scottsdale Fashion Square, and others have plentiful, free, and convenient parking.

Source:
https://www.pewresearch.org/short-reads/...%25),have%20three%20or%20more%20vehicles.

Originally Posted by Obadno

I have never had a serious issue with parking downtown at any time and I go all the time.

The worst thing is having to pay like 10 bucks but its not hard to find. I can usually park for free and walk a few blocks at most

Parking, shmarking. This is such a weak excuse for business failures and site selection decisions. Sure 92% of households have access to at least one car, but that doesn't mean that car is always used for shopping and dining out. In many households, including my own, it's a car shared by two or more drivers and therefore not always available. In other cases, it's a car used when appropriate but not when a different mode makes more sense. Even the 8% with no car access are a significant portion of a large population.

If businesses try too hard to pander to a whiny desire for free, ubiquitous parking, they're just setting themselves up to fail in an urban market. Instead, they need to make themselves into worthwhile destinations for those willing to walk a few blocks or pay a few bucks if they drive there. There are nearby restaurants like Lom Wong and Taco Chelo in the surrounding neighborhood that are thriving with the same parking constraints. The original Little Miss location on University Drive has limited parking and long lines, but customers have endured those challenges for years.

As for chain retailers, they're doing just fine in many urban centers with far less parking than the surplus that exists in downtown Phoenix. It's not a matter of insufficient parking. It has been a matter of insufficient people. That continues to change for the better, but cautious chains take time to catch up.

[MiEncanto]

Originally Posted by exit2lef

Parking, shmarking. This such a weak excuse for business failures and site selection decisions. Sure 92% of households have access to at least one car, but that doesn't mean that car is always used for shopping and dining out. In many households, including my own, it's a car shared by two or more drivers and therefore not always available. In other cases, it's a car used when appropriate but not when a different mode makes more sense. Even the 8% with no car access are a significant portion of a large population.

If businesses try too hard to pander to a whiny desire for free, ubiquitous parking, they're just setting themselves up to fail in an urban market. Instead, they need to make themselves into worthwhile destinations for those willing to walk a few blocks or pay a few bucks if they drive there. There are nearby restaurants like Lom Wong and Taco Chelo in the surrounding neighborhood that are thriving with the same parking constraints. The original Little Miss location on University Drive has limited parking and long lines, but customers have endured those challenges for years.

As for chain retailers, they're doing just fine in many urban centers with far less parking than the surplus that exists in downtown Phoenix. It's not a matter of insufficient parking. It has been a matter of insufficient people. That continues to change for the better, but cautious chains take time to catch up.

You're entitled to your opinion but it's pretty uncharitable to tell a business owner who stepped up, made an investment, and put their livelihood on the line, that they don't know what they're doing and should simply "do it better". Keyboard warriors like us with no money on the line should show a little more deference to those who are laying it on the line. Your attitude is pretty arrogant on this one.

[azcats]

Quickly have read through this last page. Couple of thoughts:

For a big, major city - Phoenix (also, being relatively new compared to cities back east) is so easy - laid out on a north south - east west grid. Everything east of Central - streets...everything west - avenues. Try navigating in Boston! Ha! No comparison - the city was laid out from cow paths three hundred years ago. There is a saying in Boston, "If you don't know where you are - you don't belong there." Even little Prescott is more difficult. Curves and bends in the roads - everywhere. Surprised there aren't more accidents. Southern portion of 89 is Whitespar...then, becomes Montezuma...then, Whipple...then, Irons Springs. All within just a few miles.

Going to downtown Phoenix. (Downtown is south of McDowell). Everything north on Central is not downtown. At least that was the case when I was growing up. I have never known anyone - family or friends - that have gone down to downtown Phoenix other than to go to a Suns or baseball game. I don't think parking is the issue.

[az_daniel]

Originally Posted by AZSunHiker

92% of US households have access to at least one car. (see link below). I wonder if lack of convenient free parking is a primary driver for the lagging retail in downtown. It certainly is noticeable that thriving shopping centers like Biltmore, Camelback Colonade, Tempe Marketplace, Scottsdale Fashion Square, and others have plentiful, free, and convenient parking.

Source:
https://www.pewresearch.org/short-reads/...%25),have%20three%20or%20more%20vehicles.

How about all of the dead malls and empty strip malls in the valley that are surrounded by oceans of free parking, lol? I think those areas are busy because they are close to denser parts of the city and offer many options in close priximity (something that is a characteristic of urban areas, btw).

Anyways, here is some data from a handful of downtown phoenix census tracts for household car ownership (not individual car ownership):
CT 1141 (downtown core) = 37% of households do not own a car
CT 1131 (north downtown) = 18% of households do not own a car
CT 1132.02 (garfield) = 15% of households do not own a car
CT 1132.04 (garfield) = 19% of households do not own a car
CT 1142 (warehouse district) = 22% of households do not own a car
CT 1149 (south downtown) = 30% of households do not own a car
CT 1140 (east downtown/eastlake) = 26% of households do not own a car
CT 1143.01 (southwest downtown) = 29% of households do not own a car
CT 1129 (west downtown) = 13% of households do not own a car

source: https://equity-data.dot.gov/datasets/usd...location=33.438137%2C-112.072820%2C14.34

obviously some of these are lower, and some are higher, but it shows that downtown phoenix is far from being aligned with national or even phx metro car ownership trends. there is a substantial population of people who do not own cars in this community, and many who own cars but frequently use other modes.

For those who do own a car or drive into the city, there is absolutely no shortage of parking in Downtown Phoenix. the downtown comprehensive parking study showed us that downtown's *total* off street parking inventory is only 31-35% occupied day to day. the on street parking inventory is just 54-57% occupied. half of downtown's parking garages sit at 25% occupancy or below every day, many businesses will validate your garage parking. the north downtown area, which includes roosevelt, has a total parking occupancy of 45%. This is obviously concentrated around roosevelt st proper, but many streets nearby have 25% parking occupancy or lower, and plenty of them are free.

downtown has substantial parking availability and it also has a significant and growing population of no-car households. it is important that we think about downtown as a growing urban community with many needs and preferences, rather than a business park catering to suburban drivers. that's not what downtown is anymore. just offering some perspective from someone who lives in the area and owns a car.

[exit2lef]

Originally Posted by MiEncanto

You're entitled to your opinion but it's pretty uncharitable to tell a business owner who stepped up, made an investment, and put their livelihood on the line, that they don't know what they're doing and should simply "do it better". Keyboard warriors like us with no money on the line should show a little more deference to those who are laying it on the line. Your attitude is pretty arrogant on this one.

I've talked to Scott and he seems like a good guy, but I feel burned not once but twice. First, the Midtown location of Little Miss was abandoned before it even opened. Then, Full Speed closed after only seven months. He's got great instincts for barbecue but maybe needs to figure some things out with respect to opening new locations in urban environments. What you call arrogant and uncharitable, I call a combination of frustration and constructive criticism.

[AZSunHiker]

Instead, they need to make themselves into worthwhile destinations for those willing to walk a few blocks or pay a few bucks if they drive there. There are nearby restaurants like Lom Wong and Taco Chelo in the surrounding neighborhood that are thriving with the same parking constraints. The original Little Miss location on University Drive has limited parking and long lines, but customers have endured those challenges for years.

Not every establishment is a destination restaurant. Hence addressing the question of why downtown Phoenix is lagging other Valley retail areas.

For those who do own a car or drive into the city, there is absolutely no shortage of parking in Downtown Phoenix. the downtown comprehensive parking study showed us that downtown's *total* off street parking inventory is only 31-35% occupied day to day. the on street parking inventory is just 54-57% occupied. half of downtown's parking garages sit at 25% occupancy or below every day, many businesses will validate your garage parking. the north downtown area, which includes roosevelt, has a total parking occupancy of 45%. This is obviously concentrated around roosevelt st proper, but many streets nearby have 25% parking occupancy or lower, and plenty of them are free.

That's really interesting. Thanks for sharing. So it's not a parking issue then. Or maybe parking is inconvenient compared to elsewhere although that hypothesis can't really be measured objectively. Though the prior post about cancelled lunches suggests it is inconvenient or at least perceived as such.

CT 1141 (downtown core) = 37% of households do not own a car
CT 1131 (north downtown) = 18% of households do not own a car
CT 1132.02 (garfield) = 15% of households do not own a car
CT 1132.04 (garfield) = 19% of households do not own a car
CT 1142 (warehouse district) = 22% of households do not own a car
CT 1149 (south downtown) = 30% of households do not own a car
CT 1140 (east downtown/eastlake) = 26% of households do not own a car
CT 1143.01 (southwest downtown) = 29% of households do not own a car
CT 1129 (west downtown) = 13% of households do not own a car

Interesting. Though it does make sense because downtown Phoenix and its surrounding neighborhoods have a lot of low income and poverty households. (See the Census Reporter by zip code such as https://censusreporter.org/profiles/86000US85006-85006/). Perhaps the catchment area's disposable income is the main reason its retail economy struggles. Or a mismatch with which demographic segments retailers are trying to reach.

[exit2lef]

Originally Posted by AZSunHiker

Not every establishment is a destination restaurant. Hence addressing the question of why downtown Phoenix is lagging other Valley retail areas.


Perhaps the catchment area's disposable income is the main reason its retail economy struggles. Or a mismatch with which demographic segments retailers are trying to reach.

With respect to dining, downtown Phoenix is hardly lagging. In fact, it's one of the areas that has seen the most growth in restaurants, not withstanding the short lifespan of Full Speed.

With respect to retail, Downtown is lagging, but not due to poverty. The rents in the immediate Downtown area are high, and those who can afford to live there generally have discretionary income. I think it's more likely a combination of high rents and national retailers cautiously following formulas that favor suburban locations. Those rubrics for site selection often trail urban revitalization by a decade or more.

[combusean]

Yeah, retailers look at area median incomes in certain radii from a particular point that are dragged down by the crummy neighborhoods outside of downtown. Garfield and the really downtrodden neighborhoods to the south and west of downtown have to improve and there's no sign of that happening.

[TllrSkyline-01]

Patience and timing...we are still under construction, and frankly don't have population density needed. Many many many residents still need to move into the core of DT PHX for all these elements being discussed to come together. I worked with many developers on commercial projects all around the state...the studies I see before they commit to investing $$$ millions are quite extensive with summaries of demographics of family types and sizes, incomes, jobs available, and variety of supplemental services. Right now, we just don't have those numbers, so adding a large Target or similar chain store would kill smaller shops, and Target itself may not survive.

I hope that when current projects are completed and filled in with permanent residents, we can see this place thrive...but now we must wait for a few thousand more residents to call DT home... and hope rent costs can drop to attract them.

[soled]

Originally Posted by MiEncanto

There are no plans for that property. It's got many problems and probably needs to be scraped.

Are they looking to rent, or to buy a property downtown?

[MiEncanto]

Originally Posted by soled

Are they looking to rent, or to buy a property downtown?

I was discussing their midtown property where Honey Bears was. They paid a pretty penny for that parcel and I think the building is basically unusable which is a real shame. I don't think they've made a decision on what to do.

You mentioned downtown. I don't think they have a plan that involves downtown right now.

[Obadno]

My wife and I went to Carry On last night which was a lot of fun they really did a creative job with the whole plane motiff!

However I wanted to say we popped into Cornish as we are want to do before going home and they finally opened up the old subway space and WOW!

What a fantastic job, the entire downstairs is now open to the corner with big tables, a full wrap around bar and a balcony from the top levels looking down, this easily doubled the size of the restaurant and the new entry off the corner of 1st and Adams is going to look incredible What a huge improvement!

And the restaurant in the former Downtown Deli spot looks to be near opening with a nice well lilt patio that whole corner is going to look fantastic!

[exit2lef]

Gadzooks has closed its Tempe and Chandler restaurants. This development, coupled with the recent closure of Hugo’s, suggests the owners may be overextended and leads me to question if the proposed arrangement with the City of Phoenix to develop a restaurant at the old firehouse site will actually happen.

https://www.phoenixnewtimes.com/restaura...oks-closed-2-valley-restaurants-21137699

[ASU Diablo]

Originally Posted by exit2lef

Gadzooks has closed its Tempe and Chandler restaurants. This development, coupled with the recent closure of Hugo’s, suggests the owners may be overextended and leads me to question if the proposed arrangement with the City of Phoenix to develop a restaurant at the old firehouse site will actually happen.

https://www.phoenixnewtimes.com/restaura...oks-closed-2-valley-restaurants-21137699

100%.

They should just reach out to Sam Fox and his FRC group and get this over with.

[Obadno]

Originally Posted by exit2lef

Gadzooks has closed its Tempe and Chandler restaurants. This development, coupled with the recent closure of Hugo’s, suggests the owners may be overextended and leads me to question if the proposed arrangement with the City of Phoenix to develop a restaurant at the old firehouse site will actually happen.

https://www.phoenixnewtimes.com/restaura...oks-closed-2-valley-restaurants-21137699

Selfishly Im not unhappy about this, I like gadzooks and I feel like their model doesn't scale that well.

[exit2lef]

Originally Posted by ASU Diablo

100%.

They should just reach out to Sam Fox and his FRC group and get this over with.

The city wants a restaurant at that site serving three meals a day to ensure maximum activation of the park. The Henry does that. Maybe once Fox has opened their new Uptown location of that brand they could be lured to Hance Park. Going with Fox seems like the path of least resistance, but it may be the only viable one for this site.