Quebec, the French Language, and Quebecois Identity

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by theman23

Was Trudeau “based” when he randomly stood up in the house and shouted that he would always defend his daughter’s right to have an abortion? Legault is probably just as desperate to cling to power. I’m surprised you don’t see through it.

While neither is a policy shift for either man, I’d argue the headwinds are stronger for Legault on this than they were for Trudeau on abortion.

[MolsonExport]

Originally Posted by kwoldtimer

You left out the part about banning praying in public.

God forbid we see practising Catholics giving the sign of the cross out in public.

[New Brisavoine]

Originally Posted by Acajack

Yesterday François Legault made some end of session (before Christmas) comments, and said this:

Je veux aujourd’hui envoyer un message très clair aux islamistes. Les valeurs fondamentales qu’on a au Québec, comme la laïcité, comme l’égalité hommes-femmes… Eh bien, on va se battre, puis jamais, jamais on ne va accepter que des personnes essaient de ne pas respecter les valeurs qui sont fondamentales au Québec.

Can anyone honestly see any other Premier in any other Canadian province say something like this? They're far too scared shitless.

This week a renowned liberal philosopher and political scientist in France, a disciple of the late Raymond Aron (who opposed Sartre and all the left-wing pro-Moscow, pro-Mao, pro-Castro, pro-Khmers Rouges French intellectuals in the 1960s and 1970s), has created quite a stir by saying that "decisions must be made regarding the number of Muslims in Europe, this number cannot continue to grow at the current rate, otherwise we will face tragedies that no version of secularism will be able to control." Cue: all the Left up-in-arms calling him a Hitlerite racist (Raymond Aron was a Jew, but whatever).

I quite like the response by Ferghane Azihari (who is himself from a Muslim African background) to those Left critics. At the end of his tweet you'll find the video where the philosopher said the fateful words that have outraged the French Left media.

https://x.com/FerghaneA/status/1865351826750484673

[New Brisavoine]

Originally Posted by MolsonExport

God forbid we see practising Catholics giving the sign of the cross out in public.

Yeah, because the problem we face in our Western societies are Catholics giving the sign of the cross out in public... These false equivalences kill all rational public debate.

Québec understands better than the ROC what Islam means because Québec has the most Muslims in Canada. And their Muslims are among the most proselytes and unlikely to integrate (Maghreb in particular). ROC, with the exception of the Somalians, gets much less problematic Muslims (Indian Muslims, in general, are not an issue at all, as they stick to their religion in their community and don't bother the rest of society with it the way the Maghrebans do).

[kwoldtimer]

Originally Posted by New Brisavoine

Yeah, because the problem we face in our Western societies are Catholics giving the sign of the cross out in public... These false equivalences kill all rational public debate.

Québec understands better than the ROC what Islam means because Québec has the most Muslims in Canada. And their Muslims are among the most proselytes and unlikely to integrate (Maghreb in particular). ROC, with the exception of the Somalians, gets much less problematic Muslims (Indian Muslims, in general, are not an issue at all, as they stick to their religion in their community and don't bother the rest of society with it the way the Maghrebans do).

Ontario's Muslim population is twice that of Quebec.

[1overcosc]

Originally Posted by Acajack

Yesterday François Legault made some end of session (before Christmas) comments, and said this:

Je veux aujourd’hui envoyer un message très clair aux islamistes. Les valeurs fondamentales qu’on a au Québec, comme la laïcité, comme l’égalité hommes-femmes… Eh bien, on va se battre, puis jamais, jamais on ne va accepter que des personnes essaient de ne pas respecter les valeurs qui sont fondamentales au Québec.

Can anyone honestly see any other Premier in any other Canadian province say something like this? They're far too scared shitless.

This, IMO, is the real problem with Anglo-Canada. Much more so than "islamists" or "abortion" or any of the other things we get worked up about: that it's not our democratically elected governments driving the bus, it's civil society groups. Politicians are more afraid of them than they are of their own damn people.

[kwoldtimer]

Originally Posted by 1overcosc

This, IMO, is the real problem with Anglo-Canada. Much more so than "islamists" or "abortion" or any of the other things we get worked up about: that it's not our democratically elected governments driving the bus, it's civil society groups. Politicians are more afraid of them than they are of their own damn people.

Uhm, civil society groups are made up of our own damn people, no?

[1overcosc]

Originally Posted by kwoldtimer

Uhm, civil society groups are made up of our own damn people, no?

A tiny minority of the population, who have massively disproportionate influence. And there are too many politicians in this country who see themselves as representatives of "the groups", rather than representatives of their constituents. The Liberals especially (but definitely not exclusively) see a political base as being the sum of organizations and spokespeople. The Conservatives are a bit better at being more grassroots, but they're still far from good on this file.

[1overcosc]

Originally Posted by kwoldtimer

Ontario's Muslim population is twice that of Quebec.

True - but on a proportional level the difference is not big (about 7% in ON vs. 5% in QC) and as NB mentioned, Ontarian Muslims are disproportionately a lot more likely to be secularized. A lot of people in the GTA calling themselves Muslim but still going out to bars. Kinda the inverse of how Quebec has a higher % of the population that is Christian than Ontario does, yet there are a lot more religious Christians in Ontario than there are in Quebec.

[theman23]

The demographic differences are not that great. I suspect it has more to do with graft rejection than graft vs host.

[New Brisavoine]

Originally Posted by kwoldtimer

Ontario's Muslim population is twice that of Quebec.

I was talking per capita of course. Ontario being far more populated than any other other province, it will have more of everything in absolute terms, which is meaningless in itself. Anyway, I see 1overcosc has already responded. Indian Muslims and Maghreban Muslims are simply not comparable at all. France has had Indians Muslims in Réunion (who are improperly called "Zarabes" in Réunionese Creole) since the 19th century, and we have 0 problem with them at all (the oldest mosque in France was actually built by those Indian Muslims in Réunion). The Maghreban Muslims are more recently established in France, and they cause far more problems.

That's the oldest mosque in France (with the exception of Mayotte of course, where they have Medieval mosques). It is in the city center of Saint-Denis de la Réunion. If France had only Muslims like them, Muslim Indian traders and shopkeepers, what a peaceful coexistence with Islam we'd have!!

[New Brisavoine]

For those of you who are curious, technically the oldest mosque in France is this one, in Mayotte. It was built in the 16th century, and it's unique in that it is built with corrals. Islam in Mayotte is also very relaxed and trouble-free. It's heavily influenced by India and Persia. We have 0 problems with this Islam (in fact the French Republic even officially recognizes the Islamic traditional judges of Mayotte, called qadis, which shows that French secularism can be pretty flexible, contrary to what outsiders often imagine). They've had to abandon shariah law when they became fully integrated with France in 2014 however.







And these are the qadis and their Muslim courts in Mayotte. Since shariah law was abandoned in favor of French civil law in 2010, they've become conciliators embedded in the French justice system. They conciliate parties to prevent a lawsuit or trial.



Mayotte and Réunion is the "happy face" of Islam in France. In Metropolitan France, with Maghrebans, Turks, Chechens, Islam is far, far more problematic, to say the least...

[theman23]

Ontario has more Muslims than Quebec, per capita or otherwise. The vast majority of Muslims in Ontario are not Indian and the vast majority of Indians in Ontario are not Muslim. They (Muslims) far more likely to be Pakistani, Bangladeshi, Iranian, Arab, or Somali which is probably similar to what you’d find in most of the anglosphere.

[MolsonExport]

Originally Posted by New Brisavoine

Yeah, because the problem we face in our Western societies are Catholics giving the sign of the cross out in public... These false equivalences kill all rational public debate.

Québec understands better than the ROC what Islam means because Québec has the most Muslims in Canada. And their Muslims are among the most proselytes and unlikely to integrate (Maghreb in particular). ROC, with the exception of the Somalians, gets much less problematic Muslims (Indian Muslims, in general, are not an issue at all, as they stick to their religion in their community and don't bother the rest of society with it the way the Maghrebans do).

Being from Quebec, I understand Quebec. Please stop presuming that you need to educate me on my own country and province. Especially on things you are wrong about (which is often the case, not that you ever admit it). Who made you an expert on proselytizing and integration? Do you really think you can just categorize entire groups, and assume that these groups are going to integrate (or not) the same way that they do in France?

But since you see fit to make pronouncements, I will state, that from my own personal experience, that Canada has done a far better job integrating its Muslim community than France (neither Montreal nor Toronto have no-go areas like Nord de Marseille, and Clichy-sous-Bois, for example).


Ontario has more than double the number of Muslims (vs. Quebec).
Muslims:
Ontario 942,990
Quebec 421,710

Even as far back as 1991, Ontario had more than triple the number of Muslims than Quebec.

[New Brisavoine]

Originally Posted by theman23

They (Muslims) far more likely to be Pakistani, Bangladeshi

Indian subcontinent. Pakistan, Bangladesh are just modern creations. Historically it's India, or "Hindustan" if you want to be Gothic. It's Indian culture, and Indianized Islam. Very little in common with Maghreban or Middle Eastern Islam. Neither Daesh nor Isis (nor the the vicious FIS or GIA, which you've probably never heard about in the ROC, but which very much concern Québec given where their immigrants come from) have appeared in South Asia.

And Statcan figures (from 2021 census) are quite clear: 43.7% of Muslims in Ontario belong to the South Asian visible community, only 20.6% to the Arab visible community.

In Québec, 51.1% of Muslims belong to the Arab visible community, only 8.5% to the South Asian visible community.

So it's not exactly surprising that Islam is not viewed similarly in Québec and in Ontario (on top of the fact that the Québécois have a different approach to religion and ethnic communities to start with).

[New Brisavoine]

Originally Posted by MolsonExport

Canada has done a far better job integrating its Muslim community than France (neither Montreal nor Toronto have no-go areas like Nord de Marseille, and Clichy-sous-Bois, for example).

Montréal today is where Marseille was in the 1970s. Give it another 20 years, and we'll talk about it again (and that's probably what Legault has in mind; not the situation as of today, but where it's headed). As for Clichy-sous-Bois, it's not a "no-go area". You've watched too much Fox News back in 2005. I'd feel safer walking around in Clichy-sous-Bois than in many North American neighborhoods.

[MolsonExport]

I've never spent one minute watching Fox News, and I have been to Clichy-sous-Bois.

Let's see in 20 years. I imagine you will still be lecturing everyone here how things are in Quebec, from your perch in France (unless of course you are just Malek in disguise).
0)

[New Brisavoine]

Originally Posted by MolsonExport

I've never spent one minute watching Fox News, and I have been to Clichy-sous-Bois.

It is Fox News that called Clichy-sous-Bois a "no-go area", back in 2005. And if you've actually been there, it's preposterous to cal the place a "no-go area". A lot of it is nondescript detached houses and parks/sports fields. As for the cités ("projects"), they are not particularly bad in Clichy-sous-Bois. There is worse in the suburbs of Paris. Besides they've had 20 years of large urban renovation now.

The famed "no-go area" Clichy-sous-Bois:





The park behind the town hall:



An example of the massive urban regeneration that has been going on in Clichy-sous-Bois in the past 20 years:

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by MolsonExport

God forbid we see practising Catholics giving the sign of the cross out in public.

I have literally never seen Christians block traffic or take over a sidewalk while doing so. Have you?

As I write this there is a large public Islamic prayer taking place on the square in front of Basilique Notre-Dame in Montreal.

Just a coincidence. Guess they could not find any other spot in the city for that.

[kwoldtimer]

Originally Posted by Acajack

I have literally never seen Christians block traffic or take over a sidewalk while doing so. Have you?

As I write this there is a large public Islamic prayer taking place on the square in front of Basilique Notre-Dame in Montreal.

Just a coincidence. Guess they could not find any other spot in the city for that.

And one cares because ..... ?