Quebec, the French Language, and Quebecois Identity

[kwoldtimer]

Originally Posted by New Brisavoine

^^Your figures are in US dollars at market exchange rates. That's not how GDP per capita is compared.

GDP per capita is compared at purchasing power parity. That's what the FT used in their article.

PPP is ONE way to compare GDP per capita. It is not THE way. The point remains that others have been growing faster than Canada, however it's measured.

[rousseau]

A pic of a village in Poland, Suloszowa, apparently famous for consisting of one long street of farmhouses, popped up in my Facebook feed and it immediately reminded me of the legacy of the Seigneurial system in Quebec.


https://www.google.com/maps/place/Su%C5%..._ep=EgoyMDI0MTIwMi4wIKXMDSoASAFQAw%3D%3D

[New Brisavoine]

Originally Posted by theman23

The good news is our relative drop-off isn't as bad as Italy.

Higher life expectancy and better food in Italy though. Warmer winters too. Plus beauty, architecture, and history.

[MolsonExport]

Originally Posted by kwoldtimer

PPP is ONE way to compare GDP per capita. It is not THE way. The point remains that others have been growing faster than Canada, however it's measured.

This. PPP is not without its faults. We can each come up with different metrics, and they do not all converge. I deal with this all the time as someone who conducts international research for a living.

[New Brisavoine]

In general, from my observation over all these years, people who criticize PPP are those who are not satisfied with its results.

Of course PPP can be criticized, like any statistical tool, but to paraphrase Churchill, it's the worst statistical international comparison of standards of livings, to the exception of all others.

Market exchange rate comparisons make 0 sense in the real world (beyond measuring the purchasing power of a few imported goods like, say, Mercedes cars). In large economies, it's locally produced goods and services that matter most for the standard of living. A 25 m² (270 sq ft) one-room apartment in the center of Paris costs around 1,500 Canadian dollars per month to rent at current market exchange rates. How much for the same in central locations of Toronto? You get the idea.

Note that at PPP, the same apartment would cost 1,750 Canadian dollars per month to rent, which is already closer to the truth.

[P'tit Renard]

Originally Posted by New Brisavoine

Higher life expectancy and better food in Italy though. Warmer winters too. Plus beauty, architecture, and history.

Italy is a mixed bag IMO, based on friends who tried living there and moved elsewhere in the EU or back to North America quickly after. Despite the qualities above, it has a daily grind of bureaucracy, crime, lousy job market, old buildings with poor maintenance, that makes it way less attractive than say France, Suisse, Netherlands or even post-Brexit UK. They were mostly in Rome or Northern Italy, so can't imagine how much the living situation deteriorates south of Rome.

[YOWetal]

Originally Posted by MolsonExport

This. PPP is not without its faults. We can each come up with different metrics, and they do not all converge. I deal with this all the time as someone who conducts international research for a living.

Yes the idea PPP is "the" way is completely false. I'd argue the true value is generally somewhere between PPP and market exchange rates. A rough comparison would be comparing a salary of say 100,000 Euros in Paris to 60,000 in a smaller city. Yes some aspects are more expensive but some consumption even a lot is standardized.

Our larger GDP per capita does buy as more cars, electronics, international vacations and the like even if it as you say buys us less of some other things like restaurant meals and some housing.

[New Brisavoine]

Originally Posted by P'tit Renard

Italy is a mixed bag IMO, based on friends who tried living there and moved elsewhere in the EU or back to North America quickly after. Despite the qualities above, it has a daily grind of bureaucracy, crime, lousy job market, old buildings with poor maintenance, that makes it way less attractive than say France, Suisse, Netherlands or even post-Brexit UK. They were mostly in Rome or Northern Italy, so can't imagine how much the living situation deteriorates south of Rome.

Old buildings with poor maintenance is very much France I would say. Try any building in central Paris, even in the rich areas; it's always shocking how behind the gleaming Haussmannian façade, which is pretty and manicured only because the public authorities make it mandatory since the 1960s for the co-owners to clean and refurbish it every 10-20 years or so, the interior of the building can be old and decrepit, like rickety old wooden stairs straight out of an old black and white movie, wallpaper in common areas unchanged since the 1970s, etc. French landlords are SUPER stingy, and if they are not forced by public authorities, they don't do the work needed to maintain the buildings. Public authorities can only force them to refurbish and clean the façade however, not the inside of the building.

As for bureaucracy, France has a lot too (perhaps not as much as Italy, but Italy is far less bureaucratic than, say, Morocco, where many French expats now live). And as for crime, unfortunately in recent years France is fast approaching the Italian situation, with drug trafficking, gangs, mafias, intimidation and corruption of civil servants, on a level I would have thought impossible 10 years ago.

Switzerland and Netherlands, yeah, definitely better than Italy on all these points (although the crime situation in The Netherlands is fast deteriorating too, like in France, for the same reasons, Moroccan drug trafficking totally out of control, Dutch judges and politicians threatened by mafia lords, etc), but keep in mind Switzerland and The Netherlands have a GDP per capita vastly superior to Canada (Switzerland has a GDP per capita higher than even the US).

As for the UK, it's a mixed bag. Some buildings are old and decrepit, other are well maintained. In general in central London in my experience, in the rich areas the buildings are better maintained than in the rich areas of Paris, landlords refurbish more often and put more money in it (renting in London is also much much more expensive than in Paris). On the other hand, in working class areas the housing stock is often decrepit, overcrowded (like 10 different Romanian families living in a 3 bedroom house, due to landlords with no ethic trying to maximize rents, something that is very rare in France). And of course all housing stock in the UK, rich or poor, is usually built with bricks, i.e. poor insulation, especially in the now torrid summers of England. Haussmannian limestone insulates much more the buildings. Crime-wise, the situation in the UK is a bit better than in France or Italy, especially for petty crimes in the streets. There's still a bit more of civility in the UK. As for bureaucracy, lower than in France or Italy, but the other side of the coin is: don't expect much in terms of public services. Healthcare in the UK is also inferior to France.

[New Brisavoine]

Originally Posted by YOWetal

Yes the idea PPP is "the" way is completely false. I'd argue the true value is generally somewhere between PPP and market exchange rates. A rough comparison would be comparing a salary of say 100,000 Euros in Paris to 60,000 in a smaller city. Yes some aspects are more expensive but some consumption even a lot is standardized.

Our larger GDP per capita does buy as more cars, electronics, international vacations and the like even if it as you say buys us less of some other things like restaurant meals and some housing.

I know all these things, been reading them for YEARS. Yet it is as it is. The World Bank has the ICP (International Comparison Program), and they do count all the goods, and adjust to the average proportion of each good in the average yearly basket of the average person, and the latest ICP found that 1 euro in France buys you what 1.75 Canadian dollars buy you in Canada, not what 1.5 Canadian dollars buy you (which is the official exchange rates). And yes, that includes the few expensive imported goods that people buy from time to time.

[P'tit Renard]

Originally Posted by New Brisavoine

Old buildings with poor maintenance is very much France I would say. Try any building in central Paris, even in the rich areas; it's always shocking how behind the gleaming Haussmannian façade, which is pretty and manicured only because the public authorities make it mandatory since the 1960s for the co-owners to clean and refurbish it every 10-20 years or so, the interior of the building can be old and decrepit, like rickety old wooden stairs straight out of an old black and white movie, wallpaper in common areas unchanged since the 1970s, etc. French landlords are SUPER stingy, and if they are not forced by public authorities, they don't do the work needed to maintain the buildings. Public authorities can only force them to refurbish and clean the façade however, not the inside of the building

Yes, we'd heard of some of the horror stories regarding the Haussman buildings as well. Interestingly enough, one of our close pals now living in Boulbi had previously lived in Milano for a year, and it was such a terrifying experience that he's still counting his lucky stars that his work can be permanently based in Paris. He would much rather return home to Montréal that subject himself to another month of living in Italy, and he's Québécois born to Italian parents (and can speak the language).

He's currently living in a 60-70s era apartment and we were quite surprised at how well the building was maintained, and even the original modernist artwork were kept in good condition. The unit was very spacious, bright with high utility.

We also dropped by some of the new builds dotting the Seine to take a quick a look, and we thought the construction quality was pretty decent. They were well-insulated and had good soundproofing, and the layouts are better and much brighter than the new dog crate condos in Toronto.

Granted, Boulbi and Issy are outside of the peripherique, but it's only a few metro stops or a few minutes bike ride before you hit 16ieme/15ieme.

We've also been following our friend's search for a Euro vacation property with intense interest, and at this point he's crossed Italy off the list just because the building quality just isn't there. He could find much newer and better construction in Provence and Alicante/Murcia, which is where he's narrowed down his search.

[YOWetal]

Originally Posted by New Brisavoine

I know all these things, been reading them for YEARS. Yet it is as it is. The World Bank has the ICP (International Comparison Program), and they do count all the goods, and adjust to the average proportion of each good in the average yearly basket of the average person, and the latest ICP found that 1 euro in France buys you what 1.75 Canadian dollars buy you in Canada, not what 1.5 Canadian dollars buy you (which is the official exchange rates). And yes, that includes the few expensive imported goods that people buy from time to time.

Yes don't dispute the PPP calculation though nothing is perfect. The point is world market prices matter more than consumption patterns when you actually compare two economies. Lithuania for example has just passed Japan in PPP GDP per capita. Yes lots of things are very expensive in Japan but the power of consumers ignoring inequality is obviously higher in Japan even if you might argue living somewhere less expensive and growing is better.

Comparing France and Canada where the difference is small is harder and more arguable for sure.

[New Brisavoine]

Originally Posted by P'tit Renard

Interestingly enough, one of our close pals now living in Boulbi had previously lived in Milano for a year, and it was such a terrifying experience that he's still counting his lucky stars that his work can be permanently based in Paris. He would much rather return home to Montréal that subject himself to another month of living in Italy, and he's Québécois born to Italian parents (and can speak the language).

He's currently living in a 60-70s era apartment and we were quite surprised at how well the building was maintained, and even the original modernist artwork were kept in good condition. The unit was very spacious, bright with high utility.

Boulogne-Billancourt is my personal definition of hell (except for the small fringe bordering the Bois de Boulogne, which is upper class and one of the best areas in all of Europe). It's not only lacking in style (as in bland and boring), but above all it's IMPOSSIBLY FAR by métro. I would rather live in Siberia than have to use line 9 of the métro everyday to and from Boulogne-Billancourt (overcrowded, one stop every 200 meters, never ending stations, impossible to sit down, always, always some annoying beggars bothering you during the trip, etc). And this being Paris, and now with our Green extremists opposed to car driving, it's hard to commute by car if you live in Boulogne-Billancourt, so you have to use the métro.

Originally Posted by P'tit Renard

He could find much newer and better construction in Provence and Alicante/Murcia, which is where he's narrowed down his search.

Yeah, Spanish housing is usually more recent and better quality than either France of Italy. It's usually ugly, or bland and boring, but always more recent (unlike the French and Italians, the Spaniards have absolutely no qualms tearing down historical old buildings in city centers and villages in order to build ugly/bland new buildings with better comfort).

[New Brisavoine]

Originally Posted by YOWetal

Yes don't dispute the PPP calculation though nothing is perfect. The point is world market prices matter more than consumption patterns when you actually compare two economies. Lithuania for example has just passed Japan in PPP GDP per capita. Yes lots of things are very expensive in Japan but the power of consumers ignoring inequality is obviously higher in Japan even if you might argue living somewhere less expensive and growing is better.

You're perhaps confusing two things: PPP GDP per capita, which is a measure of "production", and wealth (as in savings). Lithuania has grown a lot in the past 20 years, and they have now reached Japan in GDP per capita, but surely the average Japanese household has much more wealth than the average Lithuanian household, because the Japanese have been richer much longer than the Lithuanians, so they have had time to accumulate wealth (and the Japanese in particular save a lot).

So your Japanese tourist probably will be able to spend more abroad than the average Lithuanian tourist, but in terms of production, PPP GDP per capita suggests Lithuania today produces just as much as Japan per capita. Over time, they'll build their savings too.

Lithuanians are the like the Québécois of the 1970s basically. Just very recently developed. According to the UBS Wealth Report, in 2023 the median wealth per adult was 107,000 USD in Japan, vs only 32,000 USD in Lithuania.

Interestingly the Americans are not that wealthy (their median wealth is only 112,000 USD, which is less than Italy, France, Canada, UK), probably because they are heavily indebted. Americans produce a lot (high GDP per capita), but their net position is mediocre, so if they stop producing, they would grow poor rather quickly.

[lio45]

Originally Posted by New Brisavoine

French landlords are SUPER stingy, and if they are not forced by public authorities, they don't do the work needed to maintain the buildings.

Not surprising at all. There’s a direct relationship between how tenant-friendly a given jurisdiction is, and how slumlordy the property owners will naturally tend to be. Free market forces at work.

[New Brisavoine]

Originally Posted by lio45

Not surprising at all. There’s a direct relationship between how tenant-friendly a given jurisdiction is, and how slumlordy the property owners will naturally tend to be. Free market forces at work.

I think it goes way beyond that. Even owner-occupiers do not refurbish or maintain properly their houses/apartments. You'd often be shocked visiting houses in France (inhabited by their owner).

And then the 2nd thing is French people are very individualistic and not cooperative, so in buildings owned by several owners (each owning an apartment), even if they are owner-occupier, they'll often disagree with each other and not agree to do the necessary refurbishment in common areas (stairs, hallways). The réunions de copropriétés in Paris are often the weirdest and craziest thing you've ever seen (no cooperation, mistrust, each meeting taking endless hours and not leading to a decision, one single owner blocking the entire building, etc). For example it's not uncommon for owner-occupiers in Paris to be prevented by the other owner-occupiers from installing AC in their apartment. Just because. Your neighbors want to piss you off.

[New Brisavoine]

A reader in Le Figaro today (in a positive article about Argentina's Milei) calling Emmanuel Macron mockingly "notre Trudeau du Touquet". (he says "notre Trudeau du Touquet" is sinking France, while Milei is succeeding in Argentina)

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by New Brisavoine

A reader in Le Figaro today (in a positive article about Argentina's Milei) calling Emmanuel Macron mockingly "notre Trudeau du Touquet". (he says "notre Trudeau du Touquet" is sinking France, while Milei is succeeding in Argentina)

I'd still rather be in France than in Argentina right now, though yes the countries seem to be going in opposite directions.

Still a long way to go for Argentina.

[Acajack]

Yesterday François Legault made some end of session (before Christmas) comments, and said this:

Je veux aujourd’hui envoyer un message très clair aux islamistes. Les valeurs fondamentales qu’on a au Québec, comme la laïcité, comme l’égalité hommes-femmes… Eh bien, on va se battre, puis jamais, jamais on ne va accepter que des personnes essaient de ne pas respecter les valeurs qui sont fondamentales au Québec.

Can anyone honestly see any other Premier in any other Canadian province say something like this? They're far too scared shitless.

[kwoldtimer]

Originally Posted by Acajack

Yesterday François Legault made some end of session (before Christmas) comments, and said this:

Je veux aujourd’hui envoyer un message très clair aux islamistes. Les valeurs fondamentales qu’on a au Québec, comme la laïcité, comme l’égalité hommes-femmes… Eh bien, on va se battre, puis jamais, jamais on ne va accepter que des personnes essaient de ne pas respecter les valeurs qui sont fondamentales au Québec.

Can anyone honestly see any other Premier in any other Canadian province say something like this? They're far too scared shitless.

You left out the part about banning praying in public.

[theman23]

Originally Posted by Acajack

Yesterday François Legault made some end of session (before Christmas) comments, and said this:

Je veux aujourd’hui envoyer un message très clair aux islamistes. Les valeurs fondamentales qu’on a au Québec, comme la laïcité, comme l’égalité hommes-femmes… Eh bien, on va se battre, puis jamais, jamais on ne va accepter que des personnes essaient de ne pas respecter les valeurs qui sont fondamentales au Québec.

Can anyone honestly see any other Premier in any other Canadian province say something like this? They're far too scared shitless.

Was Trudeau “based” when he randomly stood up in the house and shouted that he would always defend his daughter’s right to have an abortion? Legault is probably just as desperate to cling to power. I’m surprised you don’t see through it.