General Retail News

[phil235]

Originally Posted by acottawa

But also urban residents are subject to a frog in a boiling pot mentality. The changes have been gradual and more or less baked into perceptions. For people who visit less frequently are comparing things to the way they were in 2019 or 2014 and it is a pretty jarring change.

Possibly a factor, but I’d still put a lot more value on the viewpoint of people who actually spend a lot of time in the area than those who rarely or never visit.

As an aside, the recent crime stats for the Market that accompanied the stories on the new police presence in the Market didn’t actually seem to show a worsening from 2019. Not surprisingly crime went down during the pandemic lockdowns, but mostly just seemed to return to pre-pandemic levels.

[BGO]

Steve's on Spark would be pretty amazing. I love what they did with their montreal location. Would attract people for sure. Could be a great link between the byward and bank (for the ones willing to walk lol)

[acottawa]

Originally Posted by phil235

Possibly a factor, but I’d still put a lot more value on the viewpoint of people who actually spend a lot of time in the area than those who rarely or never visit.

As an aside, the recent crime stats for the Market that accompanied the stories on the new police presence in the Market didn’t actually seem to show a worsening from 2019. Not surprisingly crime went down during the pandemic lockdowns, but mostly just seemed to return to pre-pandemic levels.

People who actually spend a lot of time there are insufficient to keep the market viable as a going concern. The status quo if nothing changes is continued decline.

[phil235]

Originally Posted by acottawa

People who actually spend a lot of time there are insufficient to keep the market viable as a going concern. The status quo if nothing changes is continued decline.

True that the Market needs to draw from the wider population. Street level retail less so, as it is much more dependent on people who live and work in the area.

The phrase "continued decline" contains a pretty big assumption. Not sure that it is fair to characterize a corridor has two major hotels, a major concert venue, a new grocery story and hundreds of condos coming on line over a couple of years as being in decline. Regardless, the narrative does need to change, because a negative perception of downtown translates into a negative perception of the city as a whole, and people in Orleans and Barrhaven aren't immune to the effects of that.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by phil235

True that the Market needs to draw from the wider population. Street level retail less so, as it is much more dependent on people who live and work in the area.

The phrase "continued decline" contains a pretty big assumption. Not sure that it is fair to characterize a corridor has two major hotels, a major concert venue, a new grocery story and hundreds of condos coming on line over a couple of years as being in decline. Regardless, the narrative does need to change, because a negative perception of downtown translates into a negative perception of the city as a whole, and people in Orleans and Barrhaven aren't immune to the effects of that.

I try to counter the current negative image of the Byward Market amongst my friends, family and my kids and their friends.

But even I try to get out of the Market and Rideau area before 10 if I'm out and about in the evening.

[LeadingEdgeBoomer]

Shoppers Drug Mart and the University of Ottawa have agreed on a partnership. In early 2025 SDM will open a pharmacy in the Minto Sports Complex with a licensed pharmacist in charge.

Shoppers is making a transformative gift to drive research, advance education and training, and support and promote health and wellness on campus. I do not yet know he exact amount of money that gift amounts to, but it is said that it is in excess of 2 million dollars.

Some of the things that Shoppers will support are:

Innovative research: A groundbreaking study on expanding pharmacists’ roles in patient care will be conducted — an industry first on a Canadian university campus.
State-of-the-art facilities: Construction of a cutting-edge lab at the School of Pharmaceutical Sciences.
Francophone support: New placement scholarships to train French-speaking pharmacists in rural communities.

[acottawa]

Originally Posted by phil235

The phrase "continued decline" contains a pretty big assumption. Not sure that it is fair to characterize a corridor has two major hotels, a major concert venue, a new grocery story and hundreds of condos coming on line over a couple of years as being in decline. Regardless, the narrative does need to change, because a negative perception of downtown translates into a negative perception of the city as a whole, and people in Orleans and Barrhaven aren't immune to the effects of that.

We will see how the concert venue goes, and how it drives foot traffic, but two hotels and a bunch of condos does not stop the decline. They need people to travel to the market from other parts of the city. This is not helped by people sticking their heads in the sand about the safety and aesthetic problems that make it an increasingly undesirable place to go.

[kwoldtimer]

Originally Posted by acottawa

We will see how the concert venue goes, and how it drives foot traffic, but two hotels and a bunch of condos does not stop the decline. They need people to travel to the market from other parts of the city. This is not helped by people sticking their heads in the sand about the safety and aesthetic problems that make it an increasingly undesirable place to go.

Don't know about the aesthetic problem (less so than much of Ottawa istm), but even without the perceived safety problem, there's no longer much to attract people from other parts of the city. If the Market were indeed a full, functioning market, maybe there'd be a point to the place, but as it is it has little to offer as a destination.

[phil235]

Originally Posted by acottawa

We will see how the concert venue goes, and how it drives foot traffic, but two hotels and a bunch of condos does not stop the decline. They need people to travel to the market from other parts of the city. This is not helped by people sticking their heads in the sand about the safety and aesthetic problems that make it an increasingly undesirable place to go.

This is not helped by people sticking their heads in the sand about "safety problems", but it is helped by people regularly perpetuating a narrative about the area being in decline?

I've tried to point to objective measures that counter that narrative - hundreds of millions of dollars of business investment in the area, crime stats that don't actually show an increase in crime post pandemic. How about almost an negligible retail vacancy rate in the Market at a time when bricks and mortar are struggling almost everywhere else? Or the fact that visits to the area have steadily increased from 2020 to 2023 (it seems that some people are finding a reason to go).

None of that says continued decline to me. Is there anything beyond perception that you can point to that suggests decline?

I'd also note that the Market and the block on Rideau with the safe injection sites are not one in the same. That block is not actually in the Market, and it has undoubtedly declined.

[lrt's friend]

The market better have an increase in traffic between 2020 and 2023 given that 2020 was the bottom of the pandemic lockdown. This statistic tells us nothing of how the market is doing.

[phil235]

Originally Posted by lrt's friend

The market better have an increase in traffic between 2020 and 2023 given that 2020 was the bottom of the pandemic lockdown. This statistic tells us nothing of how the market is doing.

How about the other statistics I pointed to?

Also, foot traffic in the Market has increased every year for four consecutive years, which shows a positive trend and not the continuing decline that others are claiming as though it is a fact. The negativity on this subject is remarkable, considering it all seems to be based on subjective perception of people who say that they don't actually go there much. Of course those people get a time lapse view of things in their annual visits, which apparently counts for more than being there every day.

[bartlebooth]

Originally Posted by phil235

How about the other statistics I pointed to?

Also, foot traffic in the Market has increased every year for four consecutive years, which shows a positive trend and not the continuing decline that others are claiming as though it is a fact. The negativity on this subject is remarkable, considering it all seems to be based on subjective perception of people who say that they don't actually go there much. Of course those people get a time lapse view of things in their annual visits, which apparently counts for more than being there every day.

I’m a person that’s in the market and on Rideau (between Coburg and Sussex) often, not everyday but multiple times per week for shopping, dining, appointments, etc. I’m also there at all hours of the day including late at night. This area has been part of my week to week life for years. Generally, I don’t see the kind of decline a lot of folks describe.

There are long standing issues in the neighborhood (poverty, people struggling with mental health issues, etc) and we need to do a better job of helping these folks. I’d say we’ve seen this increase since the pandemic in and around the market. Generally speaking though, I feel like the area has improved in terms of vibrancy, activity throughout the day, investment, etc. This is obviously an anecdotal set of observations and experiences but I agree that it’s important to counter the narrative of chaos and decline because it’s not true from where I’m standing.

[ottawaballa]

As someone who's lived in the market just off Rideau for the last 10 years, I really don't see the drastic decline people are talking about. I walk down Rideau every day and have never had any issues. Maybe I'm just immune to the problems. I definitely think it can be better though. I can understand people who don't live in the area and don't come often being put off by the homelessness and drug addicts. As others have noted, the majority of people who tell me about the downfall of the market are people that don't ever go there.

[acottawa]

Almost all of the actual retail is gone, including the furniture/home stores and most clothing vendors, most of it has been replaced by uses of questionable value such pot and vape shops or pop up type stores. Almost all of the national or international brands are gone (Patagonia is the last holdout). The farmers market (and related specialty food stores) are mostly gone. Much of the nightlife is gone. The area between the market building and Rideau Centre still seems to be doing ok. Clarence seems to be successful, but benefits from two large city garages. The concert venue is a potential good development, but it also replaced a fairly high traffic retail location. Other than that the area is pretty sad, particularly in comparison to what it was 10-15 years ago.

[phil235]

Originally Posted by acottawa

Almost all of the actual retail is gone, including the furniture/home stores and most clothing vendors, most of it has been replaced by uses of questionable value such pot and vape shops or pop up type stores. Almost all of the national or international brands are gone (Patagonia is the last holdout). The farmers market (and related specialty food stores) are mostly gone. Much of the nightlife is gone. The area between the market building and Rideau Centre still seems to be doing ok. Clarence seems to be successful, but benefits from two large city garages. The concert venue is a potential good development, but it also replaced a fairly high traffic retail location. Other than that the area is pretty sad, particularly in comparison to what it was 10-15 years ago.

By Patagonia being the “last holdout”. do you mean the new store they opened two years ago? And by no furniture/home stores, you are excluding the 3-storey EQ3 furniture store on George? Or Zone on Sussex? Or the Bay, which has a beautiful newly renovated furniture and housewares section? Not sure what standard you are applying here, but I’m not sure when the Market was ever the place to shop large international brand clothing stores. The Rideau Centre is directly next door for just that kind of shopping.

Sure Market retail is facing challenges, but I’m not sure how you think those challenges are all that different from storefront retail anywhere else. And the shift from bars and nightlife establishments to restaurants is typically a sign of rising rents in an area, not decline.

Again, I’ve pointed to a number of objective measures to respond to your claims of continuing decline. Your responses have been limited to anecdotes. I know I’m not going to change your mind, but I hope you at least appreciate that the constant negativity about a really important area is harmful in and of itself and keeps people away from what should be a jewel for the city. It’s self-perpetuating. There is way too much of that attitude in this city. It’s discouraging.

[YOWflier]

Originally Posted by phil235

By Patagonia being the “last holdout”. do you mean the new store they opened two years ago? And by no furniture/home stores, you are excluding the 3-storey EQ3 furniture store on George? Or Zone on Sussex? Or the Bay, which has a beautiful newly renovated furniture and housewares section? Not sure what standard you are applying here, but I’m not sure when the Market was ever the place to shop large international brand clothing stores. The Rideau Centre is directly next door for just that kind of shopping.

Sure Market retail is facing challenges, but I’m not sure how you think those challenges are all that different from storefront retail anywhere else. And the shift from bars and nightlife establishments to restaurants is typically a sign of rising rents in an area, not decline.

Again, I’ve pointed to a number of objective measures to respond to your claims of continuing decline. Your responses have been limited to anecdotes. I know I’m not going to change your mind, but I hope you at least appreciate that the constant negativity about a really important area is harmful in and of itself and keeps people away from what should be a jewel for the city. It’s self-perpetuating. There is way too much of that attitude in this city. It’s discouraging.

Hear hear.

[DTcrawler]

Originally Posted by phil235

By Patagonia being the “last holdout”. do you mean the new store they opened two years ago? And by no furniture/home stores, you are excluding the 3-storey EQ3 furniture store on George? Or Zone on Sussex? Or the Bay, which has a beautiful newly renovated furniture and housewares section? Not sure what standard you are applying here, but I’m not sure when the Market was ever the place to shop large international brand clothing stores. The Rideau Centre is directly next door for just that kind of shopping.

Sure Market retail is facing challenges, but I’m not sure how you think those challenges are all that different from storefront retail anywhere else. And the shift from bars and nightlife establishments to restaurants is typically a sign of rising rents in an area, not decline.

Again, I’ve pointed to a number of objective measures to respond to your claims of continuing decline. Your responses have been limited to anecdotes. I know I’m not going to change your mind, but I hope you at least appreciate that the constant negativity about a really important area is harmful in and of itself and keeps people away from what should be a jewel for the city. It’s self-perpetuating. There is way too much of that attitude in this city. It’s discouraging.

Absolutely correct, especially the last paragraph. It’s a common problem in Ottawa, where if you don’t roll out the red carpet and make a particular destination 100% fault-free, people will make excuses about why they cannot / will not go. The Market is no different, but unfortunately the hive-mind has taken over and now people will blindly dissuade anyone they know from going to the Market over concerns about issues that they have only heard of, never experienced themselves.

Many locals who claim they would never dare step foot in the market probably wouldn’t bat an eye being in an environment with a similar level of social issues if it were in another city. A different standard as to what is tolerable seems to be applied in Ottawa. Speaking of other cities, someone in this thread compared the Market’s social issues to Vancouver’s DTES, which is just an example of the delusion that exists around this issue.

The local media doesn’t help the issue either, recycling the same stories around a single incident to hit their weekly/monthly clicks quota. Obviously news is news but it doesn’t help when a 2am targeted, gang-related stabbing/shooting leads every alarmist in this city to believe their life is at risk in the Market. In fact, could someone who’s concerned about the Market’s safety please give me an idea of how many innocent people have been injured/killed by violence in say the last four years?

[Ottawacurious]

https://experience.arcgis.com/experience/7db5b7d590754c9988d89643542ba646/page/Page/?views=Filter

Link to police crime stats

[Uhuniau]

Originally Posted by Ottawacurious

https://experience.arcgis.com/experience/7db5b7d590754c9988d89643542ba646/page/Page/?views=Filter

Link to police crime stats

Fun fact: Police and City insistence on putting out crime stats by ward is a big contributing factor to the belief that Vanier is somehow super-dangerous, because a crime in the Market is in Rideau-Vanier, and all the suburban idiots on our local commercial radio stations hear is "Vanier".

[Acajack]

Is there any hope that the actual farmer's market aspect of the Byward Market could be revived? I think that at least part of what people think when they say the market isn't what it used to be, is related to that.