Vancouver Power Grid Thread

[Migrant_Coconut]

Originally Posted by chowhou

- snip -

Pumped storage is literally the start of this entire conversation-turned-argument.

All the more reason why it's simpler, cheaper and more efficient to build closer to the actual dams than to blow 9+ digit numbers of CAD on running solar power halfway up the province, then back down again later. Otherwise we might as well skip Mica/Revelstoke and send it to straight to southern BC.

[chowhou]

Originally Posted by Migrant_Coconut

Pumped storage is literally the start of this entire conversation-turned-argument.

Originally Posted by chowhou

The nice thing about hydroelectric dams is that water can be banked up like a battery and released on demand to match electricity needs. The great thing about solar and onshore wind is that at least sometimes they increase the electricity supply meaning the dams can reduce generation and hold back water during those times. Then when solar and onshore wind aren't generating as much, we can pass more water through the dam than we otherwise would have. Solar and onshore wind actually do increase our baseload capacity because of this, specifically due to our hydroelectricity dominant system.

Hooray for hydroelectricity!

You misinterpreted.

All the more reason why it's simpler, cheaper and more efficient to build closer to the actual dams than to blow 9+ digit numbers of CAD on running solar power halfway up the province, then back down again later. Otherwise we might as well skip Mica/Revelstoke and send it to straight to southern BC.

Originally Posted by chowhou

Again I think you have this mental model that wind and solar combined with hydroelectricity means "sending" electricity from the solar and wind farms "to" the hydroelectric dams, when that's really not how it works at all. Electricity in the electrical grid does not know or care about where sources or sinks are, it only feels current and voltage flowing from sources to sinks.

Okay I rest my case.

[Migrant_Coconut]

Originally Posted by chowhou

You misinterpreted.

Terminology aside, the point still stands: the further away a source is from the sink, the more infrastructure we need to build to carry it, and the more we lose. BC Hydro's reports on pumped storage envision brand new facilities on lakes closer to potential renewable sites, not existing dams.

[Alex Mackinnon]

Originally Posted by chowhou

It's not about water constraints though, it's about matching supply to demand and increasing the baseload supply we have from our existing hydroelectric dams. Since Kemano is privately held it's probably an even better example of how it work in real world; When wind and solar power are peaking in generation capacity, electricity is going to have a high supply relative to demand, so the price of electricity Powerex is going to aim for is going to be lower. Kemano might choose to produce less excess power during this period. Then as the sun sets and the wind calms and everyone's heatpump kicks in to start heating, supply will be lower relative to demand and Powerex will be looking to buy and Kemano can ramp up production to profit.

You don't understand what I'm saying. Kemano doesn't ramp. It just runs flat out basically all the time. Alcan tried expanding the station to increase generation in the 90s, but that all got rather publicly got axed under Harcourt in the 90s.

If you want to provide peaking power, you need to have a peak power output greater than your average available water. If you have more water than generating capacity, whenever you turn off a generator, then you just lose that production forever. You wouldn't be saving the water for later, it would just be spilling elsewhere.

If your available capacity factor is near 100% based on your water resource (ie more water than the generator can take) and you curtail production, then you don't have additional generating capacity to use up that water later.

[chowhou]

Originally Posted by Alex Mackinnon

You don't understand what I'm saying. Kemano doesn't ramp. It just runs flat out basically all the time. Alcan tried expanding the station to increase generation in the 90s, but that all got rather publicly got axed under Harcourt in the 90s.

If you want to provide peaking power, you need to have a peak power output greater than your average available water. If you have more water than generating capacity, whenever you turn off a generator, then you just lose that production forever. You wouldn't be saving the water for later, it would just be spilling elsewhere.

If your available capacity factor is near 100% based on your water resource (ie more water than the generator can take) and you curtail production, then you don't have additional generating capacity to use up that water later.

Kemano might be a bad example in its current state, yes. But as you say there's no technical reason why Kemano can't expand beyond the average available water. Expanding solar and wind should be able to let us expand our existing power stations beyond the average available water fairly freely to take advantage of the natural battery that reservoirs exist as.

[aberdeen5698]

Originally Posted by Alex Mackinnon

If you have more water than generating capacity, whenever you turn off a generator, then you just lose that production forever. You wouldn't be saving the water for later, it would just be spilling elsewhere.

That depends on how full the reservoir is.

[WarrenC12]

I wish BC Hydro had a live grid view like California: https://www.gridstatus.io/live/caiso

[Alex Mackinnon]

Originally Posted by aberdeen5698

That depends on how full the reservoir is.

Hence why it says "if you have more water than generating capacity".

[aberdeen5698]

Originally Posted by Alex Mackinnon

Hence why it says "if you have more water than generating capacity".

Hey, who reads entire sentences these days?

[CanSpice]

BC Hydro's awarding contracts to 9 wind power projects that will generate nearly 5000 GWh of electricity per year, and Adrian Dix says wind power projects will be exempted from environmental assessment. [source]

[chowhou]

It doesn't take a genius to realise that if expanding green energy reduces our imports from the coal and natural gas powerplants of Alberta and the US, pretty much any environmental impact here is irrelevant.

[Changing City]

Originally Posted by chowhou

It doesn't take a genius to realise that if expanding green energy reduces our imports from the coal and natural gas powerplants of Alberta and the US, pretty much any environmental impact here is irrelevant.

Fortunately, there are no operating coal fired power plants in Alberta any more. There will also be fewer wind farms there as the province has just banned them for 'environmental reasons' in a 70,000 square kilometer area of the province.

[mcj]

Originally Posted by CanSpice

BC Hydro's awarding contracts to 9 wind power projects that will generate nearly 5000 GWh of electricity per year, and Adrian Dix says wind power projects will be exempted from environmental assessment. [source]

Roughly another Site C from these 9 projects alone, wow. There were 21 submitted for this "call to power" initiative, seems like those worrying about our generating capacity have less to worry about than we thought.

[chowhou]

Originally Posted by Changing City

Fortunately, there are no operating coal fired power plants in Alberta any more. There will also be fewer wind farms there as the province has just banned them for 'environmental reasons' in a 70,000 square kilometer area of the province.

There are still plenty of coal fired plants in the Western Interconnection.

[WarrenC12]

Originally Posted by mcj

Roughly another Site C from these 9 projects alone, wow. There were 21 submitted for this "call to power" initiative, seems like those worrying about our generating capacity have less to worry about than we thought.

Well, this call for power happened much earlier than BC Hydro had initially told us they'd need it. I'm glad these projects came forward, but we also have zero budget numbers or what this might mean for the cost of electricity in the Province.

[aberdeen5698]

Originally Posted by WarrenC12

Well, this call for power happened much earlier than BC Hydro had initially told us they'd need it. I'm glad these projects came forward, but we also have zero budget numbers or what this might mean for the cost of electricity in the Province.

Hydroelectric dams are one of the most expensive ways to generate power, according to this Wikipedia article. Solar and wind are considerably cheaper.

It may well be that solar power at our lattitude and in our climate could be similar or even more expensive than hydro, but that shouldn't apply to wind power.

[Changing City]

Originally Posted by chowhou

There are still plenty of coal fired plants in the Western Interconnection.

There are, and in the past few years Powerex has bought power from Wyoming, Utah and Montana. But it's very little - a majority of Powerex's imports come from Washington State, which has virtually no coal or gas plants - like BC it's most hydroelectric power. The only coal plant is closing next year, but there are a number of gas plants that generate 12.5% of Washington's total power. The next source is California, and they also have around 50% renewable and 50% gas powered plants.

Even adding more renewable capacity to the system doesn't guarantee we wouldn't still import fossil fuel generated power, while Powerex is encouraged to keep revenue up by trading away our clean power at a premium and buying cheaper imports.

Adding wind power is an excellent idea because as we saw last year, climate change is altering snowpack and the timing of the melt, making hydro less reliable. Combined with the much cheaper battery storage now available, tapping other non carbon sources of power is crucial.

[chowhou]

Originally Posted by Changing City

Even adding more renewable capacity to the system doesn't guarantee we wouldn't still import fossil fuel generated power, while Powerex is encouraged to keep revenue up by trading away our clean power at a premium and buying cheaper imports.

I never said it would end imports, but currently every extra kWh produced in BC from green energy means a partially carbon intensive kWh not imported or a fully green kWh exported. As I tried to say, it shouldn't take a genius to realise that if you can do that then any environmental impact assessment is a meaningless roadblock.

[mcj]

Originally Posted by WarrenC12

Well, this call for power happened much earlier than BC Hydro had initially told us they'd need it. I'm glad these projects came forward, but we also have zero budget numbers or what this might mean for the cost of electricity in the Province.

The news release from the province claims:

When adjusted to today’s dollars, the average price from the successful projects in this call is about 40% lower than BC Hydro’s last call for clean power in 2010, reducing rate impacts and keeping electricity bills affordable for people and businesses.