Atlantic Canada airport thread

[MonctonRad]

There is a zero business case for a direct flight from Moncton to Casablanca.

Zero, ziltch, nada. nyet........

for purely historical reasons, and for international French tourism, there is a potential case for a Moncton-Paris route. In fact Condor did fly this route for one year, a long time ago (about 20 years ago).

I think a Paris route might make more sense than either a Dublin or London route from SJ or Freddy. I threw those in just for equity and inclusiveness.

I do think the province should consider subsidizing routes to the US northeast (either Boston and/or NYC) to stimulate cross border connectivity. There is a business case for this. Whether this needs to be to all three major NB airports or not is up for debate.

[EnvisionSaintJohn]

Originally Posted by Saul Goode

Thanks for posting that, q12. It saved me a lot of typing.

Not sure why a Moncton to Casablanca flight is so outrageous, but a Moncton to Paris flight wouldn't be?




Saskatoon, SK has a direct flight with Cancun... so why couldn't Moncton, NB get a direct fight with Casablanca? This flight would draw on population from the entire maritimes.

Originally Posted by MonctonRad

There is a zero business case for a direct flight from Moncton to Casablanca.

Zero, ziltch, nada. nyet........

for purely historical reasons, and for international French tourism, there is a potential case for a Moncton-Paris route. In fact Condor did fly this route for one year, a long time ago (about 20 years ago).

I think a Paris route might make more sense than either a Dublin or London route from SJ or Freddy. I threw those in just for equity and inclusiveness.

I do think the province should consider subsidizing routes to the US northeast (either Boston and/or NYC) to stimulate cross border connectivity. There is a business case for this. Whether this needs to be to all three major NB airports or not is up for debate.

Why do you think there is no business case for Moncton<->Casablanca, but there's a case for Saskatoon<->Cancun?

There's more people from Morocco moving to New Brunswick than there are Mexicans moving to Saskatchewan.

As for international French tourism and historical reasons, where the business case there?

Where would you rather take a winter vacation, Paris or Casablanca?

[MonctonRad]

Originally Posted by EnvisionSaintJohn

Not sure why a Moncton to Casablanca flight is so outrageous, but a Moncton to Paris flight wouldn't be?

Regina, SK has a direct flight with Cancun... why couldn't Moncton, NB get a direct fight with Casablanca?

Regina -> Cancun fills the same niche as the Moncton -> Cancun flight does.

I can guarantee you that the existing winter YQM flights to Cuba, the Dominican Republic, Jamaica, Mexico and Florida are enough to prevent mental breakdown amongst sun starved NB snowbirds without throwing Morocco into the midst.......

[EnvisionSaintJohn]

Originally Posted by MonctonRad

Regina -> Cancun fills the same niche as the Moncton -> Cancun flight does.

I can guarantee you that the existing winter YQM flights to Cuba, the Dominican Republic, Jamaica, Mexico and Florida are enough to prevent mental breakdown amongst sun starved NB snowbirds without throwing Morocco into the midst.......

See you're not even being close to consistent, or even bringing any sort of substantive argument against a flight to Morocco.

If there's a market for all these destinations, how would there not be a market for Morocco? You're the Moncton statistical junkie... where are more new immigrants to Moncton coming from... Morocco, Algeria, Tunisia, and other French speaking African countries, or Cuba, the Dominican Republic, Jamaica, and Florida?


These newcomers from French speaking Africa will undoubtedly want to go back home for vacations, have family visit them in Canada, etc.


How is there no market for it when North Africans are among the largest cohort of newcomers in Moncton and New Brunswick? Throw in the everyone else in New Brunswick booking vacations, and there's absolutely a market for a Moncton<->Casablanca flight.

Europe, Mexico, and the Caribbean are not the only options. Not sure why some of y'all think it's such a crazy idea, but not too worried about it

[MonctonRad]

I would say that most international francophone immigrants to Moncton come from Syria and sub Saharan Africa. Hardly any from Morocco, Algeria or Tunisia.

I'm sure most of these people would be happy making connections in Paris just as much or more so than Casablanca.

There is no burgeoning desire amongst greater Monctonians to vacation in north Africa. Acadians are no different than their anglophone cousins around here. A cheap all inclusive junket to Puerto Plata (including booze) is what they want. The booze part could be a problem in Islamist north Africa.........

[EnvisionSaintJohn]

Originally Posted by MonctonRad

I would say that most international francophone immigrants to Moncton come from Syria and sub Saharan Africa. Hardly any from Morocco, Algeria or Tunisia.

I'm sure most of these people would be happy making connections in Paris just as much or more so than Casablanca.

There is no burgeoning desire amongst greater Monctonians to vacation in north Africa. Acadians are no different than their anglophone cousins around here. A cheap all inclusive junket to Puerto Plata (including booze) is what they want. The booze part could be a problem in Islamist north Africa.........

Hardly any from North Africa? Got a source for that? There's lots of Moroccans, Tunisians, Algerians, that are moving to New Brunswick, and they are ending up in Moncton more than anywhere else.

Speak for yourself, I think there's lots of people in New Brunswick, especially Francophone New Brunswickers that would very much like to visit Morocco for a vacation instead of Mexico or Cuba.

You've gotta be kidding about the booze part tho, right?

Do you honestly think all those vacationers from the UK and Ireland would flock to Morocco every winter if there wasn't booze?

Again, there's more options than Europe, Mexico, and the Caribbean.

[q12]

Originally Posted by EnvisionSaintJohn

Not sure why a Moncton to Casablanca flight is so outrageous, but a Moncton to Paris flight wouldn't be?

This was already discussed in this exact forum back in 2018 when Westjet first started flying to Paris from Halifax:

Some info from a previous post by ghYHZ on the Moncton-Paris flights operated by Canada 3000 and later Corsair back in the late 90's early 2000's.

Originally Posted by ghYHZ

Launch of the new YHZ-CDG flight brings back memories of when Moncton also had nonstop service to Paris:

Portion of an article from 1999:

MONCTON (CNB) -- New Brunswick's Paris-to-Moncton direct flight was officially launched on Saturday, June 26, at the Greater Moncton Airport, by the Department of Economic Development, Tourism and Culture.

The Canada 3000 Airlines direct Paris-to-Moncton flight is considered key to developing an international market for tourism in New Brunswick. Officials with the Department of Economic Development, Tourism and Culture have spent months cultivating the French market.......

The flights began June 12, 1999, and will continue every Saturday until September 25.

(I believe the Canada 3000 flights were on an A330. (Canada 3000 ceased operations in Nov 2001 with the downturn after the 9-11 attacks)

JUMBO JET TO SERVICE EXPANDED MONCTON-PARIS FLIGHT

July 12, 2005

The French airline Corsair will expand its Moncton-Paris direct flight in 2005 by adding two more flights and servicing it with a Boeing B747 jet.

The announcement was made today by Tourism and Parks Minister Joan MacAlpine, Corsair managing director Hervé Pierret, City of Dieppe Mayor Yvon Lapierre and Greater Moncton International Airport Authority president and CEO Rob Robichaud.

The French airline Corsair will offer 12 weekly flights between the Paris-Orly Airport and the Greater Moncton International Airport commencing June 30. The flight will be mainly serviced by the 580-passenger Boeing B747, commonly referred to as a "jumbo jet." As part of its inaugural flight last year, Corsair offered 10 flights that were serviced by a 350-passenger jet.

"We're very pleased with the expanded flight, which will continue to provide direct and affordable air access to both Europeans and New Brunswickers," MacAlpine said. "Europe is a key growth market for tourism in New Brunswick, and the direct Moncton-Paris flight will contribute to enhancing New Brunswick's reputation as an international tourism destination, and result in direct economic benefits for the tourism industry."

Corsair is owned by the German Group TUI, one of the largest tour operators in the world. The TUI Group also owns a fleet of 115 aircraft, which gives it access to an international air network.

"We are very pleased to continue this air route to New Brunswick for a second year," Pierret said. "Figures for last year's inaugural flight were conclusive and we look forward to forging a mutually beneficial relationship with New Brunswick to ensure the sustainability of this flight in the future."

Corsair has joined forces with the Province of New Brunswick, the City of Dieppe, and the Europe office of the Canadian Tourism Commission (CTC) in a $250,000 marketing initiative to meet the information and promotional requirements specific to the New Brunswick destination.

Lapierre is pleased that the flight will continue in 2005.

"Located in Dieppe, the international airport is an important transportation link ensuring tourism and business development opportunities between New Brunswick and France," he said. "We're pleased to contribute to ensure the continuity of this important air connection."

The Department of Tourism and Parks and Corsair each contributed $100,000 to this initiative. The CTC kicked in $40,000, while the City of Dieppe invested $10,000. Promotional activities include online communications to the travel trade industry, a media relations campaign, and advertisement to consumers and travel agencies to sell the New Brunswick destination.

The Greater Moncton International Airport is providing joint advertising incentives to promote the flight.

"The continuation of this service, which further opens the door between New Brunswick and the European continent, will provide important economic benefits for years to come, not only to our region, but also to the remainder of the province and the Maritimes as a whole," Robichaud said.

In 2004, foreign visitation to New Brunswick increased by 13 per cent, generating more than $40 million in tourism revenue.

Author: Alain Bryar

Organization: NB Dept. of Tourism and Parks

[q12]

Actually you can see Moncton-Paris on this old 1999 Canada 3000 route map:

But EnvisioSaintJohn should look closely as there was apparently a flight from Halifax to Málaga Airport, in Spain just 100 km from Morocco!

[Arrdeeharharharbour]

Morroco by A.J. Forsythe, on Flickr


I checked out a few all inclusive resorts online and prices are comparable with Mexico. Having a direct flight is a huge selling point for me. Tourists are welcome to drink booze all they want.

[Taeolas]

On a different note, in the early 2000's, Freddy had a (week?) daily flight to Boston I think (maybe Newark but I think it was Boston). Like the NL flights, it was subsidized by the province and run by Delta I think. And it was eventually cancelled.

I took it once. It was a morning flight, and apparently it landed in Boston so early, their customs wasn't opened. We had to wait 30 minutes on the plane before they could let us get off and go through customs.

That said, I would support the province tossing some cash to try and revive some US connections (even with the pending state of the US government and potential state of the Canadian Federal government)

[Nashe]

If the province could subsidize one route, I'd be happy with YQM-Newark or some other large US hub.

[Fischbob]

Forget the States or overseas - I'd settle for getting adequate domestic service back at this point

[sailor734]

Originally Posted by Fischbob

Forget the States or overseas - I'd settle for getting adequate domestic service back at this point

^This! 3+ flights a day to both Toronto and Montreal timed so you can make connections to and from the rest of the world.

[EnvisionSaintJohn]

Considering how much connection there already exists between and within Europe and Africa, there's a huge potential for Moncton to snag two crucial connections to Africa and Europe in Casablanca and Paris. A dozen or so of these African cities on the above map could be classified as French speaking, with a combined population of well over 50 million.

As MonctonRad mentioned, there's many French speakers moving to Moncton from Sub Saharan Africa, and for the large majority of them, a flight to Moncton via Casablanca would be a lot better than the current route via Paris & Montreal. We'd be talking close to 3000km saved for for journeys between Moncton and Casablanca. It's not going to be a daily flight or anything, but maybe it could be a two or three times a week flight. Flights from both Paris and Casablanca could be a significant step forward in helping Francophone immigrants to Canada pick New Brunswick instead of Montreal, and it would also open up a whole new world in terms of tourism for the Maritimes. Mexican/Caribbean resort vacations are like the most stereotypically Canadian winter vacation idea lol. No offence to the many who enjoy their Mexican and Caribbean resort vacation, I'm sure it's relaxing, but just doesn't sound exciting to me. While I'm sure exploring outside the resort sounds fun, Mexico's violent crime stats speak for themselves... It's far safer to rent an Air BnB in Morocco than an Air BnB in Mexico outside the resort areas. Morroco still has the typical all inclusive resorts that Canadians crave so much, but it's got a lot of other options that Canadians would consider with Mexico, but don't because of safety issues. The Moroccan economy is heavily reliant on tourism, and I wouldn't be surprised if their government would help facilitate or even partially subsidize a flight between Morocco and Atlantic Canada.

I think Moncton should have both a Paris and a Casablanca flight, while Saint John and Fredericton should get something to the UK and/or Ireland. Though, it would be a lot easier for airlines to invest in such flights if Saint John and Fredericton shared a single airport, but having a UK flight from YFC, and an Ireland flight from YSJ would at least get people from both cities to drive the distance for a flight. Still, a combined Saint John/Fredericton airport is something the younger generation should push for, even if our boomer parents, and great grandparents don't think it's currently worth the expense. In the long run, it would absolutely be worth it for the Saint John and Fredericton CMA's to share a combined airport in the middle, as the CEO from West Jet said, having so many airports in NB isn't helping us attract flights.

While a 1 airport model is unlikely to even happen with how much as been invested in YQM, a two airport model would still be worthwhile... YFC and YSJ are still very basic airports, and there is nowhere close to "too much" sunk into them to prevent building a bigger, better airport midway between the Fredericton and Saint John CMAs in the future.

Moncton getting a semi regular flight to Casablanca could help French immigrants pick Moncton and New Brunswick over Montreal and elsewhere in Quebec. Canada's Mens Soccer team has already greatly improved with additions of players of West Africa descent. Morocco; however, was the first African country to place in the top 4 of a world cup. If Canada could sustain and increase African immigration while cooling down on other areas of the world, I think we could see Canada leap frog the USA and actually compete for the World Cup of Soccer within the next two decades. Many of the best footballing countries in North and West Africa are French speaking countries, there's a co-related sporting interest involved beyond just increasing immigration. It would be great to see Atlantic Canada get at least three Canadian Premier league teams, and see more players signed from Africa to come play in our league. More flights between Atlantic Canada and Africa could help make that possible.

Atlantic Canada's political and economic elite should try and take advantage of the comparative advantage we have in being closer to Africa and Europe than the rest of Canada. Flights seem like a good place to start.

[EnvisionSaintJohn]

Originally Posted by q12

Actually you can see Moncton-Paris on this old 1999 Canada 3000 route map:

But EnvisionSaintJohn should look closely as there was apparently a flight from Halifax to Málaga Airport, in Spain just 100 km from Morocco!

Interesting. It wouldn't help the immigration piece, as the EU is strict AF with Moroccans entering Europe, but it would certainly have helped get Atlantic Canadians to Morocco for what could be, in my opinion, a much more interesting hot winter vacation than the typical Mexican or the Caribbean resort vacations that many Canadians are so obsessed with taking.

Halifax<->Casablanca is a whole 5 minutes shorter than Moncton <->Casablanca, so I figured Moncton is the more logical choice, since more Moroccans and North Africans are moving to New Brunswick than Nova Scotia. Still, I think it's pretty crazy to think it's only a 5.5 hour flight between the Maritimes and Morocco. I just looked up current flights between Moncton and Casablanca, and the shortest option is a 15 hour and 25 minute route through Montreal. I assume it's the same for Halifax.

15 hours in airports doesn't exactly cry out to Maritime vacation travellers. That's two entire days of their vacation wasted on travel. Having a direct flight would be key to making it marketable to tourists... and it would also help immigration too.




Halifax seems like a logical fit for a flight to the Azores, but also the Canary Islands. Tangier and Ibiza could be quite interesting options too.

If someone in Halifax want to fly to the Azores or Canary Islands right now, they need to fly to Toronto or Montreal first. What could be under a 4 hour journey turns into a 15 hour trip. Halifax should at least have a seasonal flight to the Azores... if it does, i can't find it. Would be really interesting if Halifax could get a flight to a massive sub Saharan African city too. Not having to first connect through Toronto or Montreal would be a huge improvement.

[MonctonRad]

WestJet and Flair cutting back on P.E.I. flights next summer
'It's disappointing and a little bit surprising,' says Charlottetown Airport Authority CEO
Connor Lamont · CBC News · Posted: Nov 25, 2024 5:49 PM AST | Last Updated: November 25
https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/prince-ed...ottetown-airport-westjet-flair-1.7392481

The article states that Westjet will no longer operate their 3x weekly summer service to Toronto, and that Flair will be decamping from the Charlottetown airport entirely.

Previously, it had been announced that Westjet was reducing their summer Calgary service from 5x weekly to 4x weekly

This is a fairly big hit for YYG

[Bishop2047]

https://www.aeroroutes.com/eng/241126-acns25ca

Some of these had been noted already but pertinent to the Atlantic.

Halifax – Deer Lake Reduce from 14 to 7 weekly
Halifax – Ottawa Increase from 21 to 28 weekly
Montreal – Fredericton Increase from 14 to 21 weekly
Toronto – St. John’s NFLD Reduce from 35 to 28 weekly
Vancouver – Halifax Reduce from 14 to 7 weekly
Halifax – St. John’s NFLD Increase from 28 to 35 weekly
Montreal – Halifax Reduce from 30 to 28 weekly
Toronto – St. John’s NFLD Reduce from 35 to 28 weekly
Toronto – Sydney NS CRJ900 replaces mainline A220-300, 1 daily

[DyAm00394]

Pascan adds new flight from YSJ to downtown Montreal

https://www.country94.ca/2024/12/03/pascan-adds-new-flight-from-ysj-to-downtown-montreal/

”More travel options are coming to the Saint John Airport with Pascan Aviation.

The regional airline is preparing to launch a new service to downtown Montreal.

The midday service will operate Tuesday through Friday starting on Dec. 31.

Lori Carle, spokesperson for the airport, said the plane will land at Pascan’s private hangar while the Montreal Metropolitan Airport terminal in St. Hubert is under construction.

“It’s like having a private charter to Montreal,” said Carle, manager of marketing and public relations at the airport.

“Pascan’s offerings provide businesses, families, and individuals with safe, convenient, and cost-effective travel options, designed with their needs in mind.”

The airline has also adjusted its schedule for other flights following community feedback in order to better meet passenger needs.

It continues to include regular service to Halifax, focusing on the popular midday flight, and connectivity through Sydney, N.S.

“As Pascan builds its network across the region, their agility in adjusting routes and schedules ensures we’re meeting the needs of our community,” Saint John Airport CEO Sandy Ross said in a news release.

“Post-pandemic travel patterns are still shifting, and we’re committed to staying dynamic to achieve sustainability and convenience for our passengers.”

Pascan began its Maritime operations on Sept. 9”.

[OliverD]

Downtown Montreal?

Montreal Metropolitan Airport and YUL are pretty much equidistant to downtown.

[homebody]

Originally Posted by DyAm00394

Pascan adds new flight from YSJ to downtown Montreal

https://www.country94.ca/2024/12/03/pascan-adds-new-flight-from-ysj-to-downtown-montreal/

She fails to mention that the airline is dropping one flight a day to Halifax. It will go 4 days a week in January down from 5. Great news about Montreal though