Quebec, the French Language, and Quebecois Identity

[Architype]

Originally Posted by kwoldtimer

It used to be called secondary school. That apparently no longer works.

Except education is not a prerequisite for voting, nor is common sense or objectivity, and what I said is just an idealistic notion of how things should be. In any democracy which hopes to effectively function and prosper, the majority of citizens should be capable of critical thinking. Aside from that, the biggest problem with the American system is having the restriction of only two major parties, where everything becomes a binary choice, usually seen reductively as the good guys versus the bad guys, switching black and white hats depending on which side you happen to be on. The world in reality is much more complex than that, and no one political party is capable of checking all the correct boxes.

[Loco101]

Originally Posted by Architype

Except education is not a prerequisite for voting, nor is common sense or objectivity, and what I said is just an idealistic notion of how things should be. In any democracy which hopes to effectively function and prosper, the majority of citizens should be capable of critical thinking. Aside from that, the biggest problem with the American system is having the restriction of only two major parties, where everything becomes a binary choice, usually seen reductively as the good guys versus the bad guys, switching black and white hats depending on which side you happen to be on. The world in reality is much more complex than that, and no one political party is capable of checking all the correct boxes.

So true. I like countries who have extremist parties on the left and right where the people in them aren't together with the more moderate representatives in liberal or conservative parties.

[New Brisavoine]

Originally Posted by Architype

Except education is not a prerequisite for voting

It was in the US in the 19th century. But it was used to disenfranchise Black voters. Today it would be predominantly used to disenfranchise Democrat-voting immigrant voters.

The French were the first to establish universal suffrage, in 1848 (at least for the male population), and since then all countries have followed suit. You simply cannot restrict voting rights based on money or education. It's impractical, and largely rejected.



PS: Note that very ironically, the universal suffrage promoted by the French republicans led to a domination of French political life by... the monarchist conservative circles! That's because the French countryside, where the large majority of the population lived at the time, was religious and monarchist. Republicans and socialists were concentrated in the cities and formed a minority of the population. The legislative assembly elected in 1848 was dominated by the monarchist parties. The same happened again in 1871 when free elections were reestablished (after Napoléon III's fall). In fact if the monarchists had been intelligent, they would have promoted female universal suffrage too, because women were far more religious and conservative than men. The monarchists would have kept their majority beyond the 1870s if women had been allowed to vote (they lost their majority in 1877). That's why French republican forces were the most opposed to women's right to vote in the Western world, and stubbornly refused to grant women the right to vote between the two world wars. De Gaulle gave women the right to vote in 1944 in order to prevent the French Communist Party from getting more than 50% of MPs in the French parliament. French women saved France from Communist takeover (such as happened in Czechoslovakia) in the 1945 general election.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by New Brisavoine

It was in the US in the 19th century. But it was used to disenfranchise Black voters. Today it would be predominantly used to disenfranchise Democrat-voting immigrant voters.

/img]

Would it though? 99% of the people I hear talk about it are supporters of the Democrats deploring how uneducated Trump voters are.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by Acajack

Getting back on topic...

Over the weekend the Canadian university (gridiron) football championship took place. It is known as the Vanier Cup.

The two teams playing were the Université Laval Rouge et Or from Quebec City, and the Sir Wilfrid Laurier Golden Hawks from Waterloo in Southern Ontario.

Before the game, the star player of the Golden Hawks deliberately bumped into one of the Laval players and said "you guys had better speak English - this is our country!"

https://x.com/rainorshinemdia/status/1860799756336820407

Final score: Rouge et Or 22 Golden Hawks 17

Now I would normally put this down to an isolated incident by some idiot, but the week before the Laval team travelled to Regina Saskatchewan to play the Rams, in the semi-final that would give them a spot in the championship game.

There, one of the Regina Rams coaches said in front of a CBC camera, "there's nothin' like takin' it to a bunch of French (sic) guys".

Here is the video of that:

https://www.instagram.com/turcotstephane/reel/DCh1Pb3KbUj/

Note that I have mentioned that Québécois don't generally use the term "Français" (French) to identify themselves, but the reporter used it ironically throughout this segment.

Final Score: Laval Rouge et Or 17 Regina 14

RIBBIT

It’s been noted in the Québec media that the gigantic NFL in the United States posted a message all in French congratulating Université Laval, on its Twitter account with tens of millions of followers.

[New Brisavoine]

Originally Posted by Acajack

Would it though? 99% of the people I hear talk about it are supporters of the Democrats deploring how uneducated Trump voters are.

Typical of people who don't realize it would largely play against them. US Republicans are already doing their best to disenfranchise as many Democrat voters as possible in the southern states today, so just imagine if voting rights were restricted...

[New Brisavoine]

French Twitter today:

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by New Brisavoine

In fact the only reference to "France" or "French" I could find on the main page of the Globe and Mail, was... this!

I haven't said it in a while, but it would be appropriate to refer to these people as what they are: they're separatists or at least crypto-separatists.

They're not really loyal to what Canada has always been historically nor to what Canada is today.

They are already envisioning a Canada without the foundational francophone element, or at least a Canada where it is shoved aside into a dark corner.

Going forward this is inconsistent with a Canada that continues to be constituted as it currently is, i.e. with 10 provinces one of which is Quebec.

That's why I consider them separatists.

Des séparatistes qui s'ignorent, si on veut.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by New Brisavoine

French Twitter today:

Yes I did expect that when the word got out about this that it would make headlines around the world.

[YOWetal]

Originally Posted by Acajack

Getting back on topic...

Over the weekend the Canadian university (gridiron) football championship took place. It is known as the Vanier Cup.

The two teams playing were the Université Laval Rouge et Or from Quebec City, and the Sir Wilfrid Laurier Golden Hawks from Waterloo in Southern Ontario.

Before the game, the star player of the Golden Hawks deliberately bumped into one of the Laval players and said "you guys had better speak English - this is our country!"

https://x.com/rainorshinemdia/status/1860799756336820407

Final score: Rouge et Or 22 Golden Hawks 17

Now I would normally put this down to an isolated incident by some idiot, but the week before the Laval team travelled to Regina Saskatchewan to play the Rams, in the semi-final that would give them a spot in the championship game.

There, one of the Regina Rams coaches said in front of a CBC camera, "there's nothin' like takin' it to a bunch of French (sic) guys".

Here is the video of that:

https://www.instagram.com/turcotstephane/reel/DCh1Pb3KbUj/

Note that I have mentioned that Québécois don't generally use the term "Français" (French) to identify themselves, but the reporter used it ironically throughout this segment.

Final Score: Laval Rouge et Or 17 Regina 14

RIBBIT

Close score. Quebec is pretty dominant in College Football. With far more winners than any other conference and over half the wins over all in recent history. High School Football is fading in a lot of the country. Perhaps less so in Quebec.

In Ottawa Gatineau I hear it pretty frequently "I am French" or are you English. Perhaps less so with more educated/government speakers who use Francophone/Anglophone. Which is very confusing in Europe when they ask you in French if you are a Francophone and you say no and respond in French I am Canadian and speak French but not a Francophone.

[OldDartmouthMark]

Originally Posted by Acajack

Yes I did expect that when the word got out about this that it would make headlines around the world.

However, we all know that this would never happen, right? I believe that was the conclusion here, anyhow.

[New Brisavoine]

^^Meanwhile, the Brits are fuming. Trump's first visit abroad will be to.... https://www.lemonde.fr/international/art...de-notre-dame-de-paris_6427147_3210.html

To be a puddle, and not even being patted by the master. What a dog's life!

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by YOWetal

In Ottawa Gatineau I hear it pretty frequently "I am French" or are you English. Perhaps less so with more educated/government speakers who use Francophone/Anglophone. Which is very confusing in Europe when they ask you in French if you are a Francophone and you say no and respond in French I am Canadian and speak French but not a Francophone.

I live my everyday life almost entirely in Gatineau in French and I'd still say it's extremely rare for a Québécois francophone person to refer to themselves as "Français". Maybe just maybe they might say "French" when speaking in English to anglophones. But it's not a common thing for people here to think of themselves as "French" or "Français". They're Québécois. French people live in France.

That said, Gatineau Québécois do use "les Anglais" for anglophones, it's true. When speaking in English, this does come out as "are you English?". For example to a customer in a business that doesn't seem to have understood something said in French. Someone visibly East Asian or South Asian may even get asked "are you English?" in Quebec. It's weird I know but that's how this place is.

As I've mentioned before, Franco-Ontariens and francophones outside Quebec in general use and identify with the "French" (or even "Français") appellation a lot more than Québécois. People in my immediate family use these terms sometimes, but they live outside Quebec and are often married to anglophones and live in a very anglo environment.

It's often surprising for people from France to encounter a Marie-France Laforest from Sudbury Ontario who will be all excited at meeting them and say something like: "ben oui, j'avais figuré que t'étais françaïïïïïïze toé 'tou, pareil comme moé!"

[P'tit Renard]

Originally Posted by YOWetal

In Ottawa Gatineau I hear it pretty frequently "I am French" or are you English. Perhaps less so with more educated/government speakers who use Francophone/Anglophone. Which is very confusing in Europe when they ask you in French if you are a Francophone and you say no and respond in French I am Canadian and speak French but not a Francophone.

Is this an unique Ottawa thing? I've never heard it used that way, neither in Toronto or Montreal. If the salutation is spoken in English, it's always either 'I'm Québécois' or 'I'm Franco'.. or 'I speak French'.

Français always means they're from France (or Belge/Suisse they seem to use it loosely too over here...), and a lot of Québécois get really pissed off (including my SO's family) if you mix up the two and mislabel their identity.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by P'tit Renard

Is this an unique Ottawa thing? I've never heard it used that way, neither in Toronto or Montreal. If the salutation is spoken in English, it's always either 'I'm Québécois' or 'I'm Franco'.. or 'I speak French'.

Français always means they're from France (or Belge/Suisse they seem to use it loosely too over here...), and a lot of Québécois get really pissed off (including my SO's family) if you mix up the two and mislabel their identity.

Gatineau Québécois often refer to Franco-Ontariens as simply "Franco".

I think this is mostly a regionalism due to proximity. Franco-Ontariens aren't really on the radar much in Quebec, even by the time you get the outer reaches of the Montreal area like Vaudreuil and Mirabel.

[New Brisavoine]

Originally Posted by P'tit Renard

Is this an unique

An unique?

[P'tit Renard]

Originally Posted by Acajack

Gatineau Québécois often refer to Franco-Ontariens as simply "Franco".

I think this is mostly a regionalism due to proximity. Franco-Ontariens aren't really on the radar much in Quebec, even by the time you get the outer reaches of the Montreal area like Vaudreuil and Mirabel.

Interestingly...we were surprised that quite a few Franco-Ontariens prefer for people to think of them publicly as Québécois from Montréal.

We have at least a few close friends like that, who initially introduced themselves as Québécois (but the accent gave it away) when we first met them in Toronto.

The older generation of Franco-Ontariens would also sometimes introduce themselves in English as 'French-Canadien'.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by P'tit Renard

Interestingly...we were surprised that quite a few Franco-Ontariens prefer for people to think of them publicly as Québécois from Montréal.

We have at least a few close friends like that, who initially introduced themselves as Québécois (but the accent gave it away) when we first met them in Toronto.

The older generation of Franco-Ontariens would also sometimes introduce themselves in English as 'French-Canadien'.

Well, I won't say NEVER, but I've almost never heard about Franco-Ontariens preferring to be called Québécois. But almost never.

Though it depends what we're talking about.

More than a few Franco-Ontariens were born in Ontario of two Québécois parents. They may have gone through the Franco-Ontarien school system all the way up to university (almost always at uOttawa) but then moved to Quebec (their parents' home province) as adults.

This is a fairly common life path in the Ottawa-Gatineau area and Gatineau is full of people who have done this and I have several friends for whom this is the case: born in Ottawa of Québécois parents (often federal public servants), K-12 in Ottawa and uOttawa, then an adult move to Gatineau and raising their kids in Quebec.

They sometimes see their formative years in Ontario as just a "life interlude" and yes it's true that they tend to identify primarily as Québécois and not Franco-Ontarien, even if they're not hostile to the latter identity. It just doesn't speak to them much.

[Acajack]

But in my experience a Franco-Ontarien from Sudbury, Timmins or Hawkesbury whose parents were also from there would never refer to themselves as a Québécois instead of Franco-Ontariens. (Unless they moved to Quebec a long time ago and took on the Québécois identity. And even then sometimes...)

But the idea that Franco-Ontariens are simply a diaspora of "lost Québécois" is in fact anathema to Franco-Ontariens.

[P'tit Renard]

Originally Posted by Acajack

Well, I won't say NEVER, but I've almost never heard about Franco-Ontariens preferring to be called Québécois. But almost never.

Though it depends what we're talking about.

More than a few Franco-Ontariens were born in Ontario of two Québécois parents. They may have gone through the Franco-Ontarien school system all the way up to university (almost always at uOttawa) but then moved to Quebec (their parents' home province) as adults.

It was a surprise to us as well, but they still live in Toronto, so more Ontarien connections than Québécois. Abeit they're on the younger side, and I guess it helps they're plugged into Québéc media and pretty much their identity aligns with it.

Rather it's my SO who still likes to differentiate them as Franco-Ontarien, and who's more protective (like a gatekeeper) of who can be considered Québécois.