MIAMI | One Brickell CityCentre | 977 FT | 60 FLOORS

[ChiND]

This isn’t getting built. It’s like 2 WTC. It will be searching for tenants forever.

[Zapatan]

Originally Posted by ChiND

This isn’t getting built. It’s like 2 WTC. It will be searching for tenants forever.

You may be right but that seems very pessimistic, like people claiming NY would never see supertalls after 9/11.

I think a third interest rate cut is possible next year so we'll see what happens then.

[ChiND]

Originally Posted by Zapatan

You may be right but that seems very pessimistic, like people claiming NY would never see supertalls after 9/11.

I think a third interest rate cut is possible next year so we'll see what happens then.

Interest rate cuts have nothing to do with lack of demand. Miami is not a corporate center. NY is the only US city with a very strong demand for office space.

[wanderer34]

Originally Posted by ChiND

Interest rate cuts have nothing to do with lack of demand. Miami is not a corporate center. NY is the only US city with a very strong demand for office space.

https://www.cbsnews.com/newyork/news...ew-start-date/

NY will remain the largest CBD in the US due to it's size alone, but with NY Gov Kathy Hochul promising to turn on the congestion pricing tolls in many of the city's bridge, it wouldn't surprise me if many, not all, but a good amount of companies move out of Manhattan into mainly South FL (Miami, Ft Lauderdale, West Palm Beach).

[ChiND]

Originally Posted by wanderer34

https://www.cbsnews.com/newyork/news...ew-start-date/

NY will remain the largest CBD in the US due to it's size alone, but with NY Gov Kathy Hochul promising to turn on the congestion pricing tolls in many of the city's bridge, it wouldn't surprise me if many, not all, but a good amount of companies move out of Manhattan into mainly South FL (Miami, Ft Lauderdale, West Palm Beach).

In all due respect, that’s truly ridiculous.

[bdurk]

Originally Posted by ChiND

In all due respect, that’s truly ridiculous.

Lol yea this may be one of the worst takes I've seen on here. Congestion pricing will result in absolutely zero notable companies moving out of Manhattan.

[Zapatan]

Originally Posted by ChiND

Interest rate cuts have nothing to do with lack of demand. Miami is not a corporate center. NY is the only US city with a very strong demand for office space.

I know they don't but they do help projects get off the ground.

Miami has potential to be the next NY-lite.

[ChiND]

Originally Posted by Zapatan

I know they don't but they do help projects get off the ground.

Miami has potential to be the next NY-lite.

Not remotely. Chicago is the only possible NY-lite, and it's fast losing that status as businesses are leaving. Unlike NY, there's no demand for new office space in Chicago.

I love Miami, but let's be real. Dallas is a valid corporate center. Miami is not.

[wanderer34]

Originally Posted by ChiND

In all due respect, that’s truly ridiculous.

It's also ridiculous to place tolls on bridges that was once free for all vehicles. NY won't lose it's status as the largest CBD, but it will lose some business, and people because one thing I know is that people do not like to be overtaxed, and while I do not consider tolls as taxes, nonetheless, NYers are going to see it as a tax since the Brooklyn, Manhattan, Williamsburg, and the Queensboro Bridges were never tolled throughout their histories, and are under the care of the NYCDOT, which relies on different forms of revenue to maintain the roads, streets, and bridges throughout the city. In essence, congestion pricing will cripple and have a huge negative impact on the city once it's implemented citywide. From a former NYer from Brooklyn!!!

[ChiND]

Originally Posted by wanderer34

It's also ridiculous to place tolls on bridges that was once free for all vehicles. NY won't lose it's status as the largest CBD, but it will lose some business, and people because one thing I know is that people do not like to be overtaxed, and while I do not consider tolls as taxes, nonetheless, NYers are going to see it as a tax since the Brooklyn, Manhattan, Williamsburg, and the Queensboro Bridges were never tolled throughout their histories, and are under the care of the NYCDOT, which relies on different forms of revenue to maintain the roads, streets, and bridges throughout the city. In essence, congestion pricing will cripple and have a huge negative impact on the city once it's implemented citywide. From a former NYer from Brooklyn!!!

Tolls and taxes are part of life. I routinely take the subway from Manhattan to Brooklyn.

[UrbanImpact]

New York's demise is usually brought up at least once a year on these forums for as long as I've been here. There's some form of car congestion relieving measures in many of the world's alpha cities whether it's congestion charges like London or restricting people from driving on certain days based on your car license plate like Sao Paulo & Beijing.

[wanderer34]

Originally Posted by ChiND

Tolls and taxes are part of life. I routinely take the subway from Manhattan to Brooklyn.

People can opt not to drive and instead take the subway or the bus in NY, which is cheaper than paying a toll to Manhattan and back. And while FL, especially South FL has toll roads, it doesn't break the bank, plus you can stretch your dollar in many parts of FL. Finally, people in the East Coast and the Midwest and voting with their feet, and the biggest reason why they're leaving has nothing to do with the cold, but the taxes, cost of living, and the quality of life. Some are leaving due to the politics in those Northern cities, but taxes, cost of living, and quality of life are the biggest reasons.

[UrbanImpact]

Originally Posted by wanderer34

Finally, people in the East Coast and the Midwest and voting with their feet, and the biggest reason why they're leaving has nothing to do with the cold, but the taxes, cost of living, and the quality of life. Some are leaving due to the politics in those Northern cities, but taxes, cost of living, and quality of life are the biggest reasons.

South Florida is one of the most unaffordable places to live in the United States and Florida is increasingly becoming even more expensive with all the flooding and storms. Most people that I went to school with down here with have moved North and now I wish I did too.

Florida is however attracting a lot of older cranky non-working people Florida's West Coast, Space Coast and Central areas are "Karen" havens. The largest age group moving to Florida is 60+.

Check out the states with the highest quality of life according to CNBC:
https://www.cnbc.com/2024/07/13/best...e-america.html

[bdurk]

Originally Posted by wanderer34

People can opt not to drive and instead take the subway or the bus in NY, which is cheaper than paying a toll to Manhattan and back. And while FL, especially South FL has toll roads, it doesn't break the bank, plus you can stretch your dollar in many parts of FL. Finally, people in the East Coast and the Midwest and voting with their feet, and the biggest reason why they're leaving has nothing to do with the cold, but the taxes, cost of living, and the quality of life. Some are leaving due to the politics in those Northern cities, but taxes, cost of living, and quality of life are the biggest reasons.

The underlying tones of your argument are pretty lame lol. The cost of living is so high in these places because the politics are good and the places are nice to live in as a result of those politics. You can deny all you like and cite your probably super biased sources but the northern cities are doing fine and will continue to do fine.

[jackster99]

delete

[wanderer34]

Originally Posted by UrbanImpact

South Florida is one of the most unaffordable places to live in the United States and Florida is increasingly becoming even more expensive with all the flooding and storms. Most people that I went to school with down here with have moved North and now I wish I did too.

Florida is however attracting a lot of older cranky non-working people Florida's West Coast, Space Coast and Central areas are "Karen" havens. The largest age group moving to Florida is 60+.

Check out the states with the highest quality of life according to CNBC:
https://www.cnbc.com/2024/07/13/best...e-america.html

According to the link you just provided:

1. Vermont
2. Maine
3. New Jersey
4. Minnesota
5. Washington
6. Oregon
7. Hawaii
8. California
9. (tie) Connecticut
9. (tie) Massachusetts
9. (tie) New Hampshire
9. (tie) New York

Some of the states that are bolded have the reputation of being the highest taxed states in the nation. I was born and raised in NY, and have worked in CA for about two years.

https://www.businessinsider.com/pers...come-tax-rates

Here are the Top 10 states with the highest graduated state income tax rates in the US:

CA: 13.3%
HI: 11%
NY: 10.9%
DC: 10.75%
NJ: 10.75%
OR: 9.9%
MN: 9.85%
MA: 9%
VT: 8.75%
WI: 7.65%

And here's the Top 5 flat state income tax rates in the US:

WA: 7% on capital gains income over $250,000 only
ID: 5.8%
GA: 5.49%
IL: 4.95%
MS: 4.7%

Only states which don't provide state income tax are Alaska, Florida, Nevada, South Dakota, Texas, Washington, or Wyoming.

Cities with the highest tax rates (https://turbotax.intuit.com/tax-tips...ates/L2WEdS802):

1. Bridgeport, CT (22% in local and state taxes for taxpayers that earn over $150K)
2. Philadelphia, PA (20.9% in local and state income and property taxes for families that earn over $100K)
3. Milwaukee, WI (higher income families pay 17.5% in state and local income and property taxes)
4. Baltimore, MD (no tax for families who earn less than $25K, but a 16.5% in state and local income taxes)
5. Columbus, OH (11.8% for lower income citizens but +3.57% for high income = 15.37%)
6. Providence, RI (15.4% for citizens earning $150K+)
7. Portland, ME (15% in state and property taxes)
8. Louisville, KY (13.7% on families that earn over $150K)
9. Detroit, MI (13.7% on people or families earning $25K + 3% property tax)
10. Wilmington, DE (13.5% on property taxes)

There's a reason why Philadelphia ebbs and flows in it's population, and that people who have lived in Philly usually leave for the Philly suburbs (SE PA, South Jersey, and New Castle County, DE). Ditto for Baltimore, in which it's suburbs such as Baltimore County, Howard County, Anne Arundel County, and Harford County has grown, but the central core city has continued to constantly decline.

And the highest real estate values within US cities (https://www.cnbc.com/2024/07/05/the-...in-the-us.html):

1. San Jose, California

Median home sale price: $1,502,362
Increase since 2023: 12.9%
Increase since 2019: 41%

2. San Francisco

Median home sale price: $1,132,315
Increase since 2023: 10.8%
Increase since 2019: 30.5%

3. Los Angeles

Median home sale price: $925,783
Increase since 2023: 10.6%
Increase since 2019: 47.9%

4. San Diego

Median home sale price: $876,056
Increase since 2023: 9.4%
Increase since 2019: 55.1%

5. Oxnard, California

Median home sale price: $844,806
Increase since 2023: 8.2%
Increase since 2019: 43%

6. Honolulu

Median home sale price: $696,729
Increase since 2023: 6.6%
Increase since 2019: 23.4%

7. Seattle

Median home sale price: $692,195
Increase since 2023: 10.5%
Increase since 2019: 53%

8. Boston

Median home sale price: $648,108
Increase since 2023: 8.1%
Increase since 2019: 47.9%

9. New York

Median home sale price: $579,117
Increase since 2023: 10.7%
Increase since 2019: 49.2%

10. Denver

Median home sale price: $573,090
Increase since 2023: 3.0%
Increase since 2019: 45.3%

I don't see Miami, Orlando, Tampa, not Jacksonville anywhere within this list, not one FL city!!! I do see that the Top 5 cities within this list are all based in CA, followed by Honolulu, HI (lots of beaches, mountains, great air quality, and tropical weather), Seattle, WA (nearby mountains, forests, moderate weather, great economy, close to Canadian border), Boston, MA (in the NE megapolis, state capital, economic and financial capital of New England, lots of universities, major health and medical center, cultural, air, rail, road and sea hub of New England, shopping, restaurants, great economy, and very diverse), New York, NY (in the NE megapolis, multiple shopping districts, about a tenth of F500 companies located in NY, diverse and cosmopolitan population, major air, rail, road and sea hub, major health and medical center, economic, financial, and media capital of the US), and Denver, CO (nearby mountains, state capital, major air, rail, and road hub of the Rockies, economic and financial capital of the Rockies). All of those cities in the last list appears to be in blue states, BTW.

It's one thing that CNBC (home of Philly native and alleged fraudster Jim Cramer) can claim that CA, NY, NJ, and MA have the best quality of life, and it's another that the so-called best quality of life have the highest cost of living and the highest real estate values in the US. I like Boston mainly for it's cleanliness, it's diversity, and it's better mass transit system, and NY mainly for the mass transit system, it's cosmopolitan nature, and it's diversity, but both cities have also gentrified a lot of locals to the point where it's unrecognizable in certain area, and Philadelphia is headed in the same direction as Boston and NY.

Finally, here's the average real estate value for FL, which is about $392K (https://www.zillow.com/home-values/14/fl/). Although Miami may post as one of this highest, in Miami-Dade, there's affordable areas in Miami-Dade and Broward Counties that can range to $200K and $300K. It's not that hard to find affordable properties in South FL, especially with South FL's cooling of the housing market. Not everybody wants to live in condos in FL, let alone in South FL.

[wanderer34]

Originally Posted by bdurk

The underlying tones of your argument are pretty lame lol. The cost of living is so high in these places because the politics are good and the places are nice to live in as a result of those politics. You can deny all you like and cite your probably super biased sources but the northern cities are doing fine and will continue to do fine.

And once again, if things are so good in the Northern cities such as NY, Boston, Philadelphia, DC, and Chicago, and in the western cities of SF, LA, and Portland, why are the people leaving, and why are those states associated with those cities declining as we speak???

If you've read my last post, taxes and real estate values are the number one reasons why, but the current politics do play a minor role. I don't mind living in a city with gays and transgenders, so long as I can either pay the rent, the bills, the taxes, the mortgage, and can afford groceries, food, the restaurants, and other entertainment. I don't care who sleeps with whom or what they consider themselves sexually, or it they have a special pronoun, as long as I can afford the area. Speaking of which, I worked in the gayest city in America for two years (SF) prior to the pandemic and made a good deal of money, much more than in Philadelphia.

People with families and children may mind the social and the sexual orientation atmosphere, but I don't care! If I can't afford an area (SF, LA, NY, and DC especially comes to mind), other than work, what's the real purpose of living in those places? I'm coming back to Philadelphia strictly for work purposes, and when I make enough money, I'm headed out, because other than the currency, which is the US' only positive characteristic, what's the purpose of living in the US nowadays??? That's why I left the US because of all the crap that was happening in the past four years, and most of it was was purely economic, not social!!!

[BuildThemTaller]

The economy has been strong the last 4 years.

[ChiND]

Cue Mozart’s Requiem. I’ve been predicting this for years. Miami is not a business center and never will be.

https://www.msn.com/en-us/money/real...18fd8775&ei=14

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/artic...-checkout=true

Supertall Miami Tower Scrapped in Sign of Weaker Demand

Natalie Wong
January 27, 2025

Swire is seeking to sell two properties in the Brickell area
Firm plans to use funds raised for Mandarin Oriental project

[Crawford]

Originally Posted by wanderer34

And once again, if things are so good in the Northern cities such as NY, Boston, Philadelphia, DC, and Chicago, and in the western cities of SF, LA, and Portland, why are the people leaving, and why are those states associated with those cities declining as we speak???

Bc most people are dumb?

Also, these cities aren't declining. Who (outside of the alt-right bubble) honestly thinks NY and Boston and DC are declining?

And your take on congestion pricing is absurd. It's the best thing to happen to Manhattan in decades. The outdoor environment has become so much better since they turned the tolling on. Congestion pricing will be fantastic for employee and corporate retention. I only wish they would expand congestion pricing closer to where I live in Brooklyn.

I moved to NYC in 2001. Since then, no public policy change has been as overwhelmingly positive as congestion pricing. The nonstop honking, the tunnel and bridge adjacent traffic sewers, the Canal Street and Flatbush Ave. chaos, the double and triple parking, is largely gone.