Quebec, the French Language, and Quebecois Identity

[Nashe]

Originally Posted by Acajack

I think perhaps more than any other culture in history, American culture in all its manifestations tends to deliberately appeal to that which humans find naturally alluring. I mean, they are the ones who took culture and turned it into a consumer product like it had never really been before.

I wonder if this is a part of it, myself. It provides offerings that pander most closely to (more and more) selfish human cravings. They are a reflection of our greedy desires, and so should tell us a lot more about ourselves than they tell us about Americans, really... If I complain about how poor food value my fast food is while stuffing it down my craw to fill an emotional need... who is the villain in the piece?

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by Nashe

I wonder if this is a part of it, myself. It provides offerings that pander most closely to (more and more) selfish human cravings. They are a reflection of our greedy desires, and so should tell us a lot more about ourselves than they tell us about Americans, really... If I complain about how poor food value my fast food is while stuffing it down my craw to fill an emotional need... who is the villain in the piece?

"Cravings" is a word I was looking for!

Though I do think that the poster who said that they are also very good at commercially optimizing other cultures is also on to something.

Just thinking of Disney and how so many its classic tales are based on European works like those of the brothers Grimm, Charles Perreault or Hans Christian Andersen.

[Nashe]

Originally Posted by Acajack

Though I do think that the poster who said that they are also very good at commercially optimizing other cultures is also on to something.

I think the term for that is "marketing" But yes, I agree.

"Here's my spin on that thing you grew up with... complete with sound-track."

"Ugh... I hate that I love it... *cries*"

[New Brisavoine]

Originally Posted by Acajack

At the time of Confederation, Ontario + Quebec had around 82% of Canada's population. Nova Scotia + New Brunswick had around 18%.

At its peak in 1825, the Maritime Provinces had a population that was 29.4% of Maritimes + Upper and Lower Canada, vs 52,2% for Québec and 18,3% for Upper Canada.

The Francophones must have been half the population of the future Canada back then. What a great decline today when they make up barely 20% of the population...

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by New Brisavoine

At its peak in 1825, the Maritime Provinces had a population that was 29.4% of Maritimes + Upper and Lower Canada, vs 52,2% for Québec and 18,3% for Upper Canada.

The Francophones must have been half the population of the future Canada back then. What a great decline today when they make up barely 20% of the population...

As recently as the Second World War period, almost a third of Canada's population was francophone.

[New Brisavoine]

Originally Posted by OldDartmouthMark

Nova Scotia will always be small in size (i.e. it's almost an island), but that doesn't mean it was insignificant (my interpretation of your "peripheral" claim).

Luxembourg will always be small in size, but that doesn't mean it is insignificant.

Or is it?

Originally Posted by OldDartmouthMark

So, the takeaway is that bigger is better, and therefore by that logic the USA is better than both Quebec and France combined! (and Canada too)

Québec is certainly peripheral compared to the US. France sits on another continent altogether and is an anchor of Europe, so cannot be compared with the US.

[MolsonExport]

             1700 	 1725 	1750     1775 	  1800 	  1825

  	

Upper Canada 	- 	- 	- 	8,000 	50,000 	158,027

Lower Canada 	14,000 	29,000 	54,500 	96,000 	225,000 450,000

New Brunswick 	- 	- 	- 	- 	10,000 	75,000

Nova Scotia 	1,300 	5,000 	14,000 	20,000 	57,000 150,000

Prince Edward Island 	- 	300 	2,500 10,000 20,000 28,600

Newfoundland 	500 	5,000 	10,000 	16,000 	10,000 45,759

Total 	15,800 	39,300 	81,006 	150,000 	382,000 907,386

https://www65.statcan.gc.ca/acyb02/1867/acyb02_1867001803-eng.htm

[OldDartmouthMark]

Originally Posted by Nashe

I wonder if this is a part of it, myself. It provides offerings that pander most closely to (more and more) selfish human cravings. They are a reflection of our greedy desires, and so should tell us a lot more about ourselves than they tell us about Americans, really... If I complain about how poor food value my fast food is while stuffing it down my craw to fill an emotional need... who is the villain in the piece?

For me, I would tend to not think in terms of selfish, greed, villain, guilt, or judgment. It’s a product that you choose to consume for your own reasons and thus you accept the consequences of said actions. You’re not a bad person for choosing to eat junk food, you have just made a choice. Perhaps not the best choice for your personal health, but your choice nonetheless. However, wanting to eat food you enjoy does not make you greedy, as in the end you are only hurting yourself.

If I were to pass judgment, it would be on the companies who take advantage of your human-ness to create a product that fits their needs (i.e. low manufacturing cost, shelf life, ease of preparation, using questionable chemicals to create an alluring smell, taste, and appearance while not offering reasonable nutritional value, etc.). They are basically duping us into replacing a meal with ‘that’, and are using every means of deception to market it to us. In the end, though, the fact that we call it “junk food” indicates that we are aware of all of this, so we still can choose to not buy it if we really don’t want to.

My point is, why suffer the guilt if you are going to eat it anyway? Enjoy the experience, and try to remember how bad you felt after you ate it before buying it the next time!

[New Brisavoine]

Originally Posted by Acajack

As recently as the Second World War period, almost a third of Canada's population was francophone.

The Révolution tranquille was the big tragedy of Québec. If you had remained a clerical society, you'd be on course to reach 14 million people, with 3 to 4 kids per woman.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by New Brisavoine

The Révolution tranquille was the big tragedy of Québec. If you had remained a clerical society, you'd be on course to reach 14 million people, with 3 to 4 kids per woman.

Except that it wasn't really sustainable or realistic.

Christian societies that go from poor to affluent, that modernize and become more educated, always see their birth rates collapse.

Ireland went through the exact same thing.

[lio45]

Originally Posted by New Brisavoine

Which was... exactly our point. "Periphéral", "outlying" territory. Certainly not the "center" of British North America and later Canada.

From a strict geographical point of view though, the conclusions that can be drawn are limited. You can't argue that Miami and Seattle are backwaters from a technology/GDP/HDI/whatever standpoint, just on the sole basis that they'd be unsuitable (peripheral) locations for the capital of the USA.

(For another example, Lille was a booming powerhouse in the coal era / early industrial era, and IIRC one of the richest areas of the country, yet it wouldn't have a serious candidate for Capital of France if you were considering moving it at the time.)

[OldDartmouthMark]

Originally Posted by New Brisavoine

Luxembourg will always be small in size, but that doesn't mean it is insignificant.

Or is it?

So are you saying that L’Acadie was/is insignificant?

[Nashe]

Originally Posted by OldDartmouthMark

For me, I would tend to not think in terms of selfish, greed, villain, guilt, or judgment. It’s a product that you choose to consume for your own reasons and thus you accept the consequences of said actions. You’re not a bad person for choosing to eat junk food, you have just made a choice. Perhaps not the best choice for your personal health, but your choice nonetheless. However, wanting to eat food you enjoy does not make you greedy, as in the end you are only hurting yourself.

Haha, I guess I could have phrased that in a less accusatory manner. And I guess I don't take any issue with the fact that we actually CONSUME it... more with the fact that we lament it as "poor quality" or "cheesy" while eagerly dropping $40 at the cinema to see the latest Star Wars / Marvel offering wrung from Hollywood's towel, so to speak. Consume, but be honest with ourselves, at least.

[New Brisavoine]

Originally Posted by Acajack

Except that it wasn't really sustainable or realistic.

It's been sustainable in the US Bible Belt. In 2022 North Dakota had a fertility rate of 2.01 (as opposed to 1.66 for the US, and 1.35 for Vermont), Nebraska had 1.94, Utah 1.85. You guys were the Canadian Bible Belt, but you went from being Utah to being Vermont in just 20 crazy years.

[OldDartmouthMark]

Originally Posted by Nashe

Haha, I guess I could have phrased that in a less accusatory manner. And I guess I don't take any issue with the fact that we actually CONSUME it... more with the fact that we lament it as "poor quality" or "cheesy" while eagerly dropping $40 at the cinema to see the latest Star Wars / Marvel offering wrung from Hollywood's towel, so to speak. Consume, but be honest with ourselves, at least.

Been there, done that.

Usually accompanied with some kind of comment that starts with "I can't believe I just spend $XX on that!". We are very imperfect beings, aren't we?!

[New Brisavoine]

Originally Posted by OldDartmouthMark

So are you saying that L’Acadie was/is insignificant?

In the larger scheme of things it is I'm afraid... To the point that even the Québécois sovereignists are ready to sacrifice it to achieve selfish independence for Québec only.

[New Brisavoine]

In other news, the weather this week in Paris is colder than in... Montréal! This has been a deranged year for Northern Europe this year. Rain, rain, rain, and more rain, cool summer (which I don't mind personally, but most people still resent the coolish summer we've had), then no reprieve in the Autumn, cold and rainy since September already, and now the first snowstorm expected tomorrow!! Just when I needed to travel... I have a feeling it's going to be apocalyptic, as railway and road authorities can't handle a mere half inch of snow...

Meanwhile +15 degrees C in Beijing, 18 degrees in Tokyo, 23 in Shanghai this week. It should be the other way around! We should have 15 degrees in Northwest Europe now, and Beijing should have its first snowstorm!!

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by New Brisavoine

In other news, the weather this week in Paris is colder than in... Montréal! This has been a deranged year for Northern Europe this year. Rain, rain, rain, and more rain, cool summer (which I don't mind personally, but most people still resent the coolish summer we've had), then no reprieve in the Autumn, cold and rainy since September already, and now the first snowstorm expected tomorrow!! Just when I needed to travel... I have a feeling it's going to be apocalyptic, as railway and road authorities can't handle a mere half inch of snow...

It's been a beautiful autumn here and summer was great, though you can definitely tell in the air that winter is coming, albeit slowly.

Aren't many long long term meteorological predictions saying that climate change could actually mean colder weather for you in Europe, and milder weather for us?

[New Brisavoine]

Originally Posted by Acajack

Aren't many long long term meteorological predictions saying that climate change could actually mean colder weather for you in Europe

That's what I was thinking actually, although that would come from un arrêt du Gulf Stream. And I don't think the Gulf Stream has stopped yet, otherwise it would have been top news.

What it shows is that global warming is not a linear process. It's still possible to have cold years in the era of global warming.

Talking of which, I don't think I've ever seen a snowfall in northern France in November like... ever!! Normally snowfalls occur in January, and then these past years we've had only like 1 snowfall every 3 years. A snowstorm in November outside of mountain areas is CRAZY!! Central London had sub-zero temperatures last night despite Great Britain being entirely surrounded by protective waters. Central Paris was above zero, but tonight we should verge on zero. It's a massive mass of arctic air descending from the north!

[lio45]

Gulf Stream doesn’t need to “stop” for effects to be felt, it can simply just diminish, and basically all models point to that.