Quebec, the French Language, and Quebecois Identity

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by OldDartmouthMark

I can’t count the number of American movies that I’ve watched recently that include Quebec in the credits at the end of the movie. Apparently Quebec is quite a player in post-production and location shooting to some extent. I presume that they also offer a decent tax break to the movie industry, as most provinces do, to attract American film companies to come to Canada to reduce their costs.

I say good for Quebec, though some may see this as a negative example of how US culture is infiltrating the francophone culture of the province. I’m not one to judge, but I’m sure the financial benefits from this are a great asset to Quebec.

I don't think the point is that Quebec doesn't make that type of stuff. I think the point is that Quebec doesn't only or primarily make that type of stuff.

And people in Quebec don't point to that stuff as examples of their cultural dynamism.

No one in Quebec when asked about a great Quebec film, would point to something like "The Score", even if it was filmed and set in Montreal.

And no one would point to Blade Runner or Dune either, even if they were made by Denis Villeneuve.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by hipster duck

But I'd say that defining ourselves as "Not American" is fundamental to our identity, whether in BC or Ontario or Nova Scotia, beginning with the post-Revolutionary War migrations to various provinces that Acajack brought up.

At first this sounds petty, but it is the way a lot of cultures define themselves. There's a term for it too - schismogenesis: the practice of defining oneself as radically different from one's nearest neighbour.

.

This. Canadians can be rightfully sensitive about this because it's so often brought up, frequently to rub their noses in it, but it really is true and completely normal for human societies to do this.

In order to be "Something", there needs to be "Something Else" (an "Other Guy") as an opposite reference marker.

[kwoldtimer]

Originally Posted by AverageMonctonEnjoyr

The roots of anglophone Canada are directly tied to the US do to the enormous influx of American loyalists after the war ( a lot to Atlantic Canada ). The only difference between Anglo Americans and Canadians is a little bit of "freedom"
Same people, only divided by a border.

You discount that Republican vs British Colonial/Imperialist thing? I would have said it was rather influential.

[kwoldtimer]

Originally Posted by Acajack

I don't think the point is that Quebec doesn't make that type of stuff. I think the point is that Quebec doesn't only or primarily make that type of stuff.

And people in Quebec don't point to that stuff as examples of their cultural dynamism.

No one in Quebec when asked about a great Quebec film, would point to something like "The Score", even if it was filmed and set in Montreal.

And no one would point to Blade Runner or Dune either, even if they were made by Denis Villeneuve.

Would anyone refer to an American film made in Canada as a Canadian film? I can't think that I would - the Canadian element is purely business. An good for Canadians in that business.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by kwoldtimer

Would anyone refer to an American film made in Canada as a Canadian film? I can't think that I would - the Canadian element is purely business. An good for Canadians in that business.

So I guess you've never seen this along the bottom of the screen on CBC Newsworld or CTV NewsNet?

("SOMETHING COOL AND IMPORTANT HAPPENING STATESIDE"): THE CANADIAN CONNECTION!

[kwoldtimer]

Originally Posted by Acajack

So I guess you've never seen this along the bottom of the screen on CBC Newsworld or CTV NewsNet?

("SOMETHING COOL AND IMPORTANT HAPPENING STATESIDE"): THE CANADIAN CONNECTION!

I can't say that I have. What's it about?

[Acajack]

I am quite certain that English-speaking Canadians have contributed quite a bit more to the world's culture than French-speaking Canadians have.

But many if not most of Anglo-Canada's contributions register to most of the planet under the American flag.

Other countries have this going on as well, especially of course the big anglosphere ones like Britain and Australia.

Though they have a lot more stuff clearly identified with their countries, which serves to compensate.

[New Brisavoine]

Originally Posted by OldDartmouthMark

My point is, in relation to your post above, that your assertion that anglo Canadians (and presumably only anglo Canadians) are all descendants of American Loyalists may be true for some, but IMHO is untrue for the majority. And despite the fact that you are seemingly attempting to pigeonhole me into a tiny category to somehow convince me and the other readers of this forum that we are all just one degree removed Americans, is off target. Though I realize from reading this board that pigeonholing people into easy to define categories is a popular practice nowadays, as it makes it easier for you to make standard prefab assumptions and judgements over people you meet online, which is convenient as it allows you to not put out too much energy into thinking about it.

It's basically always the difference between local perceptions ("nez dans le guidon" as we would say in France) and more-distant perceptions which often allow to see the "big picture" as you guys say in English. People from Saint-Cloud vehemently deny that they are Parisians or that they have anything in common with Paris, but to you obviously they are just Parisians, no difference. And you know what, you would be right of course (I always find the outraged denial by the banlieusards that they are not Parisians ridiculous, but it's very reminiscent of your pleading here). I find local perceptions often vastly exaggerated. Way too "le nez dans le guidon". People love to stress what makes them different or unique. On a larger scale, however, there's not much that separates Anglo-Canadians from Americans (a few socio-political preferences essentially, and a few mainstream culture references, but the difference is slim).

[New Brisavoine]

Originally Posted by AverageMonctonEnjoyr

Apparently the "politeness" of Canadians is British heritage though XD

Doubtful. 19th century visitors already described the kindness and joyfulness of the French Canadians (and no later than the other day I read a travel diary by a Swedish guy who visited French Canada in the 1740s and who already described that good mentality of the French Canadians).

The French were a joyful people (not anymore unfortunately) and a very generous people too (as in welcoming travelers home, etc), and I think the French Canadians kept that spirit, perhaps because of large spaces, more opportunities, New World spirit, I don't know. When the land is bountiful, people get more relaxed and open.

[New Brisavoine]

Originally Posted by Acajack

If you go to Australia or New Zealand, you'll see a society with a lot more British-UK traits than American ones. At least compared to Canada.

Yeah, exactly, Australia and NZ are much MUCH more British than Anglo-Canada, starting with their (IMO awful) accents. Anglo-Canadian sounds better, like American accents. Sometimes when I watch videos about NZ it looks almost ridiculous in how impossibly British it is, just with a sunnier climate. But of course with the "nez dans le guidon" vision, I'm sure the New Zealanders would vehemently deny that they are British at all. They aren't entirely (think haka, etc), but they are in a large measure nonetheless.

But then I suppose the same could be said about the White New Caledonians, Although of course to me it doesn't look shocking since they are like us. (with a few differences)

(New Caledonians, in parenthesis, are absolutely lovely people, a bit like French people from 100 years ago in terms of their kindness and candidness)

[New Brisavoine]

Originally Posted by hipster duck

** Canadian food has diverged considerably from American food due to each country's immigration patterns and the rise of the US South. American food is mostly Tex-Mex and Southern these days. Again, before the 1970s, I think standard American and English Canadian food were much closer. If you're a white Vancouverite under 45, you probably know what Xiao Long Baos are. If you're a Torontonian you've had a beef patty or Roti.

I had xiaolongbao in the US. There is LOTS of Asian food in the US. I rarely ate Mexican food, and neither did my friends. We most of the time went to Asian restaurants. There are excellent dim sun restaurants in the SF Bay Area, where people go on Sunday for late lunches. Alas we don't have those in Paris.

[OldDartmouthMark]

Originally Posted by AverageMonctonEnjoyr

No, wrong war. I was referring to the 1812 war. Also you’re a grown man calling a teenager cute. Kinda off-putting. Genocide of 1755 if a whole other topic.

Whoa right there!!! I was not calling you cute. I was referring to the ideas expressed in this thread by its participants. Like, some of the ideas are so preposterous at times it seems almost ‘cute’ that people are being serious.

Jesus. I’m speechless.

[OldDartmouthMark]

Originally Posted by hipster duck

Let's put aside, for a moment, the fact that Canada is a country with two languages and therefore two solitudes.

Even just isolating English Canada, it is difficult to pin down a pan-Anglo Canadian identity due to the fact that we are a long, thin 6,500km wide country where all of the population is clustered within a few hours' drive of the US. Effectively Chile turned on its side, with the world's cultural hegemon at our doorstep!

But I'd say that defining ourselves as "Not American" is fundamental to our identity, whether in BC or Ontario or Nova Scotia, beginning with the post-Revolutionary War migrations to various provinces that Acajack brought up.

At first this sounds petty, but it is the way a lot of cultures define themselves. There's a term for it too - schismogenesis: the practice of defining oneself as radically different from one's nearest neighbour.

While Canadians speak the same dialect of English and have the same cars and homes* and food** as Americans, they have a very different set of values, and approach to life and general day-to-day life is quite a bit different than outward appearances would suggest. While Canadians can obviously blend more fluidly into American life than people of any other nationality, there's a deeper layer to America that Canadians don't really penetrate and can't really understand until they live there. You see the same in reverse: Americans who moved to Canada as adults and have moved here permanently toggle their attitude between "going native", and being America's harshest and loudest critics, and feeling homesick and complaining about how lousy things are in Canada. While they can speak the same language and expect the same consumer goods, they still approach life in Canada as a foreign country, no different than if they moved to a non-English speaking country in Europe.

* Canadian and American homes and their layouts/furnishings/size are diverging again. They probably came closest to overlapping in the late 1990s/early 2000s. So much more of our population lives in housing types like highrise condominiums and stacked townhomes, and the types of furniture that fit into these spaces is very different. You can see huge differences in Canadian attitudes to home furnishing when you consider that every Canadian city above 500,000 has at least a small format IKEA, often a full-sized store. There are American metros like Cleveland with 4+ million people within an hour's drive that have none.

** Canadian food has diverged considerably from American food due to each country's immigration patterns and the rise of the US South. American food is mostly Tex-Mex and Southern these days. Again, before the 1970s, I think standard American and English Canadian food were much closer. If you're a white Vancouverite under 45, you probably know what Xiao Long Baos are. If you're a Torontonian you've had a beef patty or Roti.

Well said.

[kwoldtimer]

Originally Posted by New Brisavoine

Doubtful. 19th century visitors already described the kindness and joyfulness of the French Canadians (and no later than the other day I read a travel diary by a Swedish guy who visited French Canada in the 1740s and who already described that good mentality of the French Canadians).

The French were a joyful people (not anymore unfortunately) and a very generous people too (as in welcoming travelers home, etc), and I think the French Canadians kept that spirit, perhaps because of large spaces, more opportunities, New World spirit, I don't know. When the land is bountiful, people get more relaxed and open.

But what has that to do with politeness (I might have said civility)?

[New Brisavoine]

Originally Posted by kwoldtimer

But what has that to do with politeness (I might have said civility)?

I think that's what he meant. The French Canadians don't have the formal politeness that is more of a France's French thing. Theirs is more a form of simplicity and camaraderie, which I much prefer personally. Their workplace is also far less formal and hierarchical than in France. And they use "tu" a lot, which we wouldn't do in France, so certainly not "polite" in an old world way here.

[New Brisavoine]

Originally Posted by kwoldtimer

You discount that Republican vs British Colonial/Imperialist thing? I would have said it was rather influential.

It was in 1800, but in the 21st century seriously?

[New Brisavoine]

Originally Posted by OldDartmouthMark

Jesus.

There. See! There's nothing more American than saying "Jesus". A Brit would never do it. (they'd say "Blimey!", "Mate!", or the likes)

[AverageMonctonEnjoyr]

Originally Posted by New Brisavoine

It's basically always the difference between local perceptions ("nez dans le guidon" as we would say in France) and more-distant perceptions which often allow to see the "big picture" as you guys say in English. People from Saint-Cloud vehemently deny that they are Parisians or that they have anything in common with Paris, but to you obviously they are just Parisians, no difference. And you know what, you would be right of course (I always find the outraged denial by the banlieusards that they are not Parisians ridiculous, but it's very reminiscent of your pleading here). I find local perceptions often vastly exaggerated. Way too "le nez dans le guidon". People love to stress what makes them different or unique. On a larger scale, however, there's not much that separates Anglo-Canadians from Americans (a few socio-political preferences essentially, and a few mainstream culture references, but the difference is slim).

True. When I speak to immigrant friends from outside of North America, they tell me they see Americans and Canadians as the same thing.

[AverageMonctonEnjoyr]

Originally Posted by OldDartmouthMark

Whoa right there!!! I was not calling you cute. I was referring to the ideas expressed in this thread by its participants. Like, some of the ideas are so preposterous at times it seems almost ‘cute’ that people are being serious.

Jesus. I’m speechless.

I apologize for taking this low hanging fruit & sending a very obvious ragebait. There was a humoristic undertone to the comment ( well at least in my eyes )

[AverageMonctonEnjoyr]

Originally Posted by New Brisavoine

I think that's what he meant. The French Canadians don't have the formal politeness that is more of a France's French thing. Theirs is more a form of simplicity and camaraderie, which I much prefer personally. Their workplace is also far less formal and hierarchical than in France. And they use "tu" a lot, which we wouldn't do in France, so certainly not "polite" in an old world way here.

Here in Acadie the vous is simply nonexistent, because « tout le monde se connaît ».