Quebec, the French Language, and Quebecois Identity

[MolsonExport]

I've lost count of the number of times that I have been lectured to by NB about how things were in Quebec, even though I was born and bred in Quebec, and I spent the majority of my life living in that province. And these lectures were always accompanied by a healthy dose of snark about Anglos.

[Acajack]

A few observations on the posts of the last 24 hours:

Ontario and Quebec were certainly much more developed than the Maritimes both economically and demographically for most of Canada's history. Pre- and post-Confederation.

If you look at numbers of the Confederation of 1867 it is very much an Ontario-Quebec duo (which is the source of the "pact between two nations" perspective that is very common in French Canada) with the other smaller provinces of New Brunswick and Nova Scotia as add-ons.

That said, OldDartmouthMark is quite correct that Nova Scotia had its own thing going on in the 1800s and was on a pretty good trade route between the UK-Europe, the US and the Caribbean. Quite famously, Joseph Howe was against Confederation as he thought that it would kill off all of this trade that was very beneficial to Nova Scotia. On July 1, 1867 to mark the date of Confederation the main newspaper in Halifax printed its entire front page in black. They arguably were both right as Canada under John A Macdonald and others oriented the entire economy of the new country towards industries in southern Ontario and Montreal (then controlled by the Golden Square Mile). Halifax and to some degree the Maritimes in general were cut off from their traditional economic linkages and came to be dependent on "central Canada" in more ways than one. Mark says that this handicapped Halifax's economy for 20 years but I would say that it was longer than that, and it took until the latter part of the 20th century and even the first part of the 21st for the region to recover and start to fully have the benefits of being part of a larger Canada, as promised by the people in the 1860s.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by OldDartmouthMark

I can't agree, really, as Canada was made up of mostly English and French, who rejected (or escaped) the US either directly or passively after the American Revolution. America diverged to become its own culture as did Canada. To say that this is entirely to be attributed to Quebec is a false statement, IMHO.

I am not sure that he chose the right words when he talked about Quebec "exporting" the most Canadian culture.

I don't have the numbers so it's quite possible and even likely that there is more cultural stuff that is "exported" from the provinces other than Quebec. Hollywood North really is a thing.

Quebec of course does clearly produce the most uniquely Canadian stuff, that isn't packaged to pass as American (with blue mailboxes replacing red ones) or maybe generically "global" (ie pseudo-American).

Is Deadpool a Canadian movie?

[Acajack]

As for the history of English-speaking Canada, well their communities and society were overwhelmingly founded by British-descended people who came from the US. (The notable exception being Newfoundland which was initially settled by people who came directly from the British Isles - sorry Ireland!).

In Nova Scotia, 20 years before the American Revolution, the British brought in the New England Planters to take over the land settled and developed by my Acadien ancestors that was seized with the deportation starting in 1755.

Of course in other parts of Anglo-Canada the first anglophone settlers were generally Loyalists who fled the US after the Revolution starting in the 1770s.

These were of course all people of British origin (and identity, hence their loyalty to the Crown), but their families often had been in America for a couple of centuries.

They were very rooted in this continent and had developed British-American ways.

These were the origins of Anglo-Canada, moreso than Merrye Olde Englande was.

Of course over time the number of people directly from the British Isles that came to Canada, Britain's remaining colony in North America, greatly surpassed the American-originated anglophone population. But they of course blended it with what was already here. Which of course wasn't that much of a culture shock for them. (Even the independent US still had a lot of British traits.)

BTW Canadian spelling isn't really this practice from Britain that has been handed down in Canada for 400 years. I've been told on this forum (maybe by KW?) and by others elsewhere that Anglo-Canadians generally spelled like Americans until the early 1900s, when there was a growing sentiment for distinctiveness from the Americans. So Canadian spelling, which is in fact a mix of American and British spelling, was developed and generalized around that time.

[OldDartmouthMark]

Originally Posted by Acajack

A few observations on the posts of the last 24 hours:

Ontario and Quebec were certainly much more developed than the Maritimes both economically and demographically for most of Canada's history. Pre- and post-Confederation.

If you look at numbers of the Confederation of 1867 it is very much an Ontario-Quebec duo (which is the source of the "pact between two nations" perspective that is very common in French Canada) with the other smaller provinces of New Brunswick and Nova Scotia as add-ons.

That said, OldDartmouthMark is quite correct that Nova Scotia had its own thing going on in the 1800s and was on a pretty good trade route between the UK-Europe, the US and the Caribbean. Quite famously, Joseph Howe was against Confederation as he thought that it would kill off all of this trade that was very beneficial to Nova Scotia. On July 1, 1867 to mark the date of Confederation the main newspaper in Halifax printed its entire front page in black. They arguably were both right as Canada under John A Macdonald and others oriented the entire economy of the new country towards industries in southern Ontario and Montreal (then controlled by the Golden Square Mile). Halifax and to some degree the Maritimes in general were cut off from their traditional economic linkages and came to be dependent on "central Canada" in more ways than one. Mark says that this handicapped Halifax's economy for 20 years but I would say that it was longer than that, and it took until the latter part of the 20th century and even the first part of the 21st for the region to recover and start to fully have the benefits of being part of a larger Canada, as promised by the people in the 1860s.

Actually, what I said or meant to say, was that the Halifax Explosion, which happened on December 6, 1917, held back further growth and development for probably two decades, as the city was in recovery and rebuild mode, not to mention the couple thousand citizens that were killed, the many more who were severely injured (many losing their sight due to flying shards of glass), and the many families who suffered losses. Then with the advent of WWII, Halifax came back into being a major wartime port, and its population grew immensely in a very short period of time.

I’ll let New Bris correct me on this as he obviously knows more about it than I, and I will not share the experiences that my Grandmother had when her home was destroyed and she almost lost life and limb in the blast.

I agree with your points by the way, and feel that you have an excellent grasp on the history of our great country. FWIW, I was never intending to suggest that the Maritimes, or Halifax specifically, were the capital of Canada, but conversely we’re not an insignificant backwater that simply looks to the US to tell us how to live, no more than Quebec is/was.

Further to all of this, due to the geography of being on the east coast, we were always in the mix in relation to the major US cities on the same coast, in both positive and negative rolls. Examples include how many “loyalists” or groups that didn’t like how they were being treated in the US (like the Quakers), the maritimes were a safe place to start a new life after the American revolution. Many black slaves escaped the US and ended up in the Maritimes via the Underground Railroad, etc. Privateers who looted American ships were based here (which actually provided a boost to the local economy). During prohibition in the US, many fishermen from the Maritimes ran illegal booze to the US for greater profits (and greater risks). Speaking of the Halifax Explosion, Boston and Halifax had a good ‘working relationship’ due to their proximity by sea, and the day after the explosion, Boston sent trainloads of medical personnel and supplies to Halifax, which was invaluable and likely saved hundreds of lives (at least). To this day, each year Nova Scotia sends a large tree to Boston to become its official Christmas tree, in appreciation for all of the help that they didn’t have to give to the people of Halifax.

Yet, we still have somehow managed to maintain our own identity, which might not be obvious to someone totally out of tune with ’anglo-Canada’ from their safe easy chair in France, or wherever.

[OldDartmouthMark]

Originally Posted by Acajack

I am not sure that he chose the right words when he talked about Quebec "exporting" the most Canadian culture.

I don't have the numbers so it's quite possible and even likely that there is more cultural stuff that is "exported" from the provinces other than Quebec. Hollywood North really is a thing.

Quebec of course does clearly produce the most uniquely Canadian stuff, that isn't packaged to pass as American (with blue mailboxes replacing red ones) or maybe generically "global" (ie pseudo-American).

Is Deadpool a Canadian movie?

I can’t count the number of American movies that I’ve watched recently that include Quebec in the credits at the end of the movie. Apparently Quebec is quite a player in post-production and location shooting to some extent. I presume that they also offer a decent tax break to the movie industry, as most provinces do, to attract American film companies to come to Canada to reduce their costs.

I say good for Quebec, though some may see this as a negative example of how US culture is infiltrating the francophone culture of the province. I’m not one to judge, but I’m sure the financial benefits from this are a great asset to Quebec.

[OldDartmouthMark]

Originally Posted by Acajack

As for the history of English-speaking Canada, well their communities and society were overwhelmingly founded by British-descended people who came from the US. (The notable exception being Newfoundland which was initially settled by people who came directly from the British Isles - sorry Ireland!).

In Nova Scotia, 20 years before the American Revolution, the British brought in the New England Planters to take over the land settled and developed by my Acadien ancestors that was seized with the deportation starting in 1755.

Of course in other parts of Anglo-Canada the first anglophone settlers were generally Loyalists who fled the US after the Revolution starting in the 1770s.

These were of course all people of British origin (and identity, hence their loyalty to the Crown), but their families often had been in America for a couple of centuries.

They were very rooted in this continent and had developed British-American ways.

These were the origins of Anglo-Canada, moreso than Merrye Olde Englande was.

Of course over time the number of people directly from the British Isles that came to Canada, Britain's remaining colony in North America, greatly surpassed the American-originated anglophone population. But they of course blended it with what was already here. Which of course wasn't that much of a culture shock for them. (Even the independent US still had a lot of British traits.)

BTW Canadian spelling isn't really this practice from Britain that has been handed down in Canada for 400 years. I've been told on this forum (maybe by KW?) and by others elsewhere that Anglo-Canadians generally spelled like Americans until the early 1900s, when there was a growing sentiment for distinctiveness from the Americans. So Canadian spelling, which is in fact a mix of American and British spelling, was developed and generalized around that time.

Well there, as you state there has long been an active intent to remain differentiated from the US, since at least the early 1900s, which is the time period that most of us can relate to. There has been a lot of water under the bridge since the 1600s, a lot of struggles, wars, and changes, along with adaptations and assertions to grow our country along its own unique path. Of course there will always be outside influences from the international world, and all ‘nations’ will continue to change and evolve as each generation sees fit. So it appears that we are all on track to follow the pathway to the future, and whatever that holds for us.

Great discussion!

[kwoldtimer]

Originally Posted by Acajack

As for the history of English-speaking Canada, well their communities and society were overwhelmingly founded by British-descended people who came from the US. (The notable exception being Newfoundland which was initially settled by people who came directly from the British Isles - sorry Ireland!).

In Nova Scotia, 20 years before the American Revolution, the British brought in the New England Planters to take over the land settled and developed by my Acadien ancestors that was seized with the deportation starting in 1755.

Of course in other parts of Anglo-Canada the first anglophone settlers were generally Loyalists who fled the US after the Revolution starting in the 1770s.

These were of course all people of British origin (and identity, hence their loyalty to the Crown), but their families often had been in America for a couple of centuries.

They were very rooted in this continent and had developed British-American ways.

These were the origins of Anglo-Canada, moreso than Merrye Olde Englande was.

Of course over time the number of people directly from the British Isles that came to Canada, Britain's remaining colony in North America, greatly surpassed the American-originated anglophone population. But they of course blended it with what was already here. Which of course wasn't that much of a culture shock for them. (Even the independent US still had a lot of British traits.)

BTW Canadian spelling isn't really this practice from Britain that has been handed down in Canada for 400 years. I've been told on this forum (maybe by KW?) and by others elsewhere that Anglo-Canadians generally spelled like Americans until the early 1900s, when there was a growing sentiment for distinctiveness from the Americans. So Canadian spelling, which is in fact a mix of American and British spelling, was developed and generalized around that time.

Not me, that I can recall.

[AverageMonctonEnjoyr]

Originally Posted by OldDartmouthMark

I can't agree, really, as Canada was made up of mostly English and French, who rejected (or escaped) the US either directly or passively after the American Revolution. America diverged to become its own culture as did Canada. To say that this is entirely to be attributed to Quebec is a false statement, IMHO. In fact for awhile the Maritimes were a very rich, highly influential part of Canada until that influence shifted to the regions now occupied as Ontario and Quebec, so perhaps we could say that the Maritimes were the primary exporter of Canadian culture?

IMHO, the main reason for the large American influence in Canadian culture was the flow of American pop culture coming across the border, through music at first, and then American cable TV (starting around the early 1970s). My parents' and grandparents' generations were not francophones (though apparently I do have French somewhere in my ancestry), but they clearly grew up in an entirely different culture than 'the American Experience'.

As far as linguistics go, at least on the east coast, we grew up spelling in the British way (i.e. colour vs color, etc.), and pronunciations (and even sentence structure at times) can be vastly different. However, those of us raised on American TV likely lost some of that uniqueness over the years. C'est la vie, but one also can't expect culture and language to remain stagnant with each emerging generation. Internet culture (social media, etc.) has spread Americanism throughout the world, and unless you cut that off completely, it's going to continue, until the American Empire fades and some other culture becomes the largest media influencer. By then, perhaps it will be such a mishmash of worldwide cultures that it may no longer be distinguishable as being specifically from one region or another.

The roots of anglophone Canada are directly tied to the US do to the enormous influx of American loyalists after the war ( a lot to Atlantic Canada ). The only difference between Anglo Americans and Canadians is a little bit of "freedom"
Same people, only divided by a border.

[AverageMonctonEnjoyr]

Originally Posted by OldDartmouthMark

Your lack of knowledge about the region is showing through. But that's okay as it would put you in the same category as the average Ontarian.

By the mid 19th Century, the east coast was a hotbed of international shipping and trade, etc. and thus the area had become quite prosperous. Population is not a singular metric by which to measure prosperity. However, by the early 20th century, the expansion of rail tipped the economic scales back in favour of Montreal and Toronto, so Halifax had a period of decline, which was worsened by the Halifax Explosion in 1917. It is the opinion of some that this held back Halifax's development by about 20 years as it recovered from that event.

So by that metric, France has also been Americanized, as you drive on the right side of the road as well. Columbo drove a Peugeot on the right side of the road, and nobody is more American than Columbo, so therefore America=France...

In case you are interested, and weren't just trying to make stuff up to antagonize me, Nova Scotia drove on the left side of the road until April 15, 1923:





Source



You're a peach!

I don't know how they greeted one another, as I wasn't around then. I do know they didn't say "howdy" or some other American stereotype. They very well may have said "how do you do", though, as I have heard people use that, but not in awhile. I've also heard "bonjour", though, so maybe we were French?

Tea has always been popular in the Martimes. I've even attended "high tea" before, but it's not so common.

I am enjoying your sense of humour, but you really should hold back a little on instructing me on how things were in the place where I grew up. It's kind of an odd thing to do, at least in my part of Canada, as it makes one look a bit silly, eh old chap?

Atlantic Canada was always prosperous. First Louisbourg then Halifax.

[OldDartmouthMark]

Originally Posted by AverageMonctonEnjoyr

The roots of anglophone Canada are directly tied to the US do to the enormous influx of American loyalists after the war ( a lot to Atlantic Canada ). The only difference between Anglo Americans and Canadians is a little bit of "freedom"
Same people, only divided by a border.

So, after England defeated France for control of Canada, they all hightailed it to the mother land and imported Americans to fill their spots?

Sorry, it sounds a little simplified, and is not my understanding of how our country was formed. Plus, same people, only divided by a border seems to ignore the couple of hundred years that have passed in the meantime.

Halifax, for example, was founded by the British when they were setting up an outpost to counter Louisbourg. Lunenburg was founded by the British wanting another outpost on the south shore, and brought over German settlers to work the land and create the town. My family has ties to the German settlers in Lunenburg, as well as Irish immigrants and I believe some from France somewhere along the line. There may be genes from some other cultures in my makeup as well, but I never got any clear info from my folks before they passed. And my lineage was never significant to me as I have always tended to live in my own time, and whatever previous generations of my family (or any family) did or didn't do was never of importance to me. We're all different in that regard, I realize, as I believe you and Acajack are still quite resentful of the expulsion that happened in 1755, and that's your right, but it also illustrates how we are all coming from different life experiences and priorities.

My point is, in relation to your post above, that your assertion that anglo Canadians (and presumably only anglo Canadians) are all descendants of American Loyalists may be true for some, but IMHO is untrue for the majority. And despite the fact that you are seemingly attempting to pigeonhole me into a tiny category to somehow convince me and the other readers of this forum that we are all just one degree removed Americans, is off target. Though I realize from reading this board that pigeonholing people into easy to define categories is a popular practice nowadays, as it makes it easier for you to make standard prefab assumptions and judgements over people you meet online, which is convenient as it allows you to not put out too much energy into thinking about it.

The narratives being expressed here are very interesting to me, as they help me understand some of the stuff being posted that I previously thought of as preposterous. Now, it has become an expectation. It's kind of cute, when you think about it.

[AverageMonctonEnjoyr]

Originally Posted by Acajack

I am not sure that he chose the right words when he talked about Quebec "exporting" the most Canadian culture.

I don't have the numbers so it's quite possible and even likely that there is more cultural stuff that is "exported" from the provinces other than Quebec. Hollywood North really is a thing.

Quebec of course does clearly produce the most uniquely Canadian stuff, that isn't packaged to pass as American (with blue mailboxes replacing red ones) or maybe generically "global" (ie pseudo-American).

Is Deadpool a Canadian movie?

Yes maybe my wording wasn’t optimal. The cultural elements that distinguish us from the US mostly stem from Quebec or french Canadians. Alot of our cultural identity contains québécois stuff . Toques, maple syrup, poutine, popularization of hockey etc.
Apparently the "politeness" of Canadians is British heritage though XD

[OldDartmouthMark]

Originally Posted by AverageMonctonEnjoyr

Atlantic Canada was always prosperous. First Louisbourg then Halifax.

Well, for awhile anyhow...

One might think that the fortress would be prepared for any onslaught. Yet, while the harbour was well defended, the main landward defences were commanded by a series of low hills, some dangerously close to the fortifications. All provided excellent locations for siege batteries.

The first attack came in 1745 following a declaration of war between Britain and France. Charged with the fervour of a religious crusade, and informed that the fortress was in disrepair with its poorly supplied troops on the verge of mutiny, the New Englanders mounted an assault on Louisbourg. Within 46 days of the invasion the fortress was captured. To the chagrin of the New Englanders, only three years later the town was restored to the French by the Treaty of Aix-la-Chapelle. In 1758 Louisbourg was besieged a second time. Without a strong navy to patrol the sea beyond its walls, Louisbourg was impossible to defend. Attacking with 13,100 troops supported by a 14,000 crew on board 150 ships, a British army captured the fortress in seven weeks. Determined that Louisbourg would never again become a fortified French base, the British demolished the fortress walls.

History - Fortress of Louisbourg National Historic Site

[OldDartmouthMark]

Originally Posted by AverageMonctonEnjoyr

Yes maybe my wording wasn’t optimal. The cultural elements that distinguish us from the US mostly stem from Quebec or french Canadians. Alot of our cultural identity contains québécois stuff . Toques, maple syrup, poutine, popularization of hockey etc.
Apparently the "politeness" of Canadians is British heritage though XD

I might point out that this "cultural identity" you are mentioning are mainly US stereotypes of what they think Canada is all about...

[AverageMonctonEnjoyr]

Originally Posted by OldDartmouthMark

So, after England defeated France for control of Canada, they all hightailed it to the mother land and imported Americans to fill their spots?

Sorry, it sounds a little simplified, and is not my understanding of how our country was formed. Plus, same people, only divided by a border seems to ignore the couple of hundred years that have passed in the meantime.

Halifax, for example, was founded by the British when they were setting up an outpost to counter Louisbourg. Lunenburg was founded by the British wanting another outpost on the south shore, and brought over German settlers to work the land and create the town. My family has ties to the German settlers in Lunenburg, as well as Irish immigrants and I believe some from France somewhere along the line. There may be genes from some other cultures in my makeup as well, but I never got any clear info from my folks before they passed. And my lineage was never significant to me as I have always tended to live in my own time, and whatever previous generations of my family (or any family) did or didn't do was never of importance to me. We're all different in that regard, I realize, as I believe you and Acajack are still quite resentful of the expulsion that happened in 1755, and that's your right, but it also illustrates how we are all coming from different life experiences and priorities.

My point is, in relation to your post above, that your assertion that anglo Canadians (and presumably only anglo Canadians) are all descendants of American Loyalists may be true for some, but IMHO is untrue for the majority. And despite the fact that you are seemingly attempting to pigeonhole me into a tiny category to somehow convince me and the other readers of this forum that we are all just one degree removed Americans, is off target. Though I realize from reading this board that pigeonholing people into easy to define categories is a popular practice nowadays, as it makes it easier for you to make standard prefab assumptions and judgements over people you meet online, which is convenient as it allows you to not put out too much energy into thinking about it.

The narratives being expressed here are very interesting to me, as they help me understand some of the stuff being posted that I previously thought of as preposterous. Now, it has become an expectation. It's kind of cute, when you think about it.

No, wrong war. I was referring to the 1812 war. Also you’re a grown man calling a teenager cute. Kinda off-putting. Genocide of 1755 if a whole other topic.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by AverageMonctonEnjoyr

Yes maybe my wording wasn’t optimal. The cultural elements that distinguish us from the US mostly stem from Quebec or french Canadians. Alot of our cultural identity contains québécois stuff . Toques, maple syrup, poutine, popularization of hockey etc.
Apparently the "politeness" of Canadians is British heritage though XD

All of the polite British Americans left the US after the Revolution and moved to Canada!

[hipster duck]

Originally Posted by AverageMonctonEnjoyr

The roots of anglophone Canada are directly tied to the US do to the enormous influx of American loyalists after the war ( a lot to Atlantic Canada ). The only difference between Anglo Americans and Canadians is a little bit of "freedom"
Same people, only divided by a border.

Question: do you have experience living in the United States?

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by OldDartmouthMark

We're all different in that regard, I realize, as I believe you and Acajack are still quite resentful of the expulsion that happened in 1755, and that's your right, but it also illustrates how we are all coming from different life experiences and priorities.

I can't speak for our friend who goes to or went to Mathieu-Martin in Dieppe (Moncton) but in my case I am not really that resentful that the Acadien deportation happened. But I do react when people make light of it, diminish its significance or are simply ignorant of it and say things reflective of that ignorance.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by OldDartmouthMark

My point is, in relation to your post above, that your assertion that anglo Canadians (and presumably only anglo Canadians) are all descendants of American Loyalists may be true for some, but IMHO is untrue for the majority.

Obviously most English-speaking Canadians today aren't descendants from Loyalists who moved here from the US after 1776. But the society they are all living in even today was largely set up by those Loyalists. So it has a lot of British American roots and traits, contrary to British-UK traits.

If you go to Australia or New Zealand, you'll see a society with a lot more British-UK traits than American ones. At least compared to Canada.

[hipster duck]

Originally Posted by OldDartmouthMark

Well there, as you state there has long been an active intent to remain differentiated from the US, since at least the early 1900s, which is the time period that most of us can relate to. There has been a lot of water under the bridge since the 1600s, a lot of struggles, wars, and changes, along with adaptations and assertions to grow our country along its own unique path.

Let's put aside, for a moment, the fact that Canada is a country with two languages and therefore two solitudes.

Even just isolating English Canada, it is difficult to pin down a pan-Anglo Canadian identity due to the fact that we are a long, thin 6,500km wide country where all of the population is clustered within a few hours' drive of the US. Effectively Chile turned on its side, with the world's cultural hegemon at our doorstep!

But I'd say that defining ourselves as "Not American" is fundamental to our identity, whether in BC or Ontario or Nova Scotia, beginning with the post-Revolutionary War migrations to various provinces that Acajack brought up.

At first this sounds petty, but it is the way a lot of cultures define themselves. There's a term for it too - schismogenesis: the practice of defining oneself as radically different from one's nearest neighbour.

While Canadians speak the same dialect of English and have the same cars and homes* and food** as Americans, they have a very different set of values, and approach to life and general day-to-day life is quite a bit different than outward appearances would suggest. While Canadians can obviously blend more fluidly into American life than people of any other nationality, there's a deeper layer to America that Canadians don't really penetrate and can't really understand until they live there. You see the same in reverse: Americans who moved to Canada as adults and have moved here permanently toggle their attitude between "going native", and being America's harshest and loudest critics, and feeling homesick and complaining about how lousy things are in Canada. While they can speak the same language and expect the same consumer goods, they still approach life in Canada as a foreign country, no different than if they moved to a non-English speaking country in Europe.

* Canadian and American homes and their layouts/furnishings/size are diverging again. They probably came closest to overlapping in the late 1990s/early 2000s. So much more of our population lives in housing types like highrise condominiums and stacked townhomes, and the types of furniture that fit into these spaces is very different. You can see huge differences in Canadian attitudes to home furnishing when you consider that every Canadian city above 500,000 has at least a small format IKEA, often a full-sized store. There are American metros like Cleveland with 4+ million people within an hour's drive that have none.

** Canadian food has diverged considerably from American food due to each country's immigration patterns and the rise of the US South. American food is mostly Tex-Mex and Southern these days. Again, before the 1970s, I think standard American and English Canadian food were much closer. If you're a white Vancouverite under 45, you probably know what Xiao Long Baos are. If you're a Torontonian you've had a beef patty or Roti.