Quebec, the French Language, and Quebecois Identity

[kwoldtimer]

Originally Posted by New Brisavoine

Do you guys still say "Kwuhbeck"?

I do, but in the last couple of years I've noticed that the CBC seems to have moved to "Kyuhbeck".

[kwoldtimer]

Originally Posted by OldDartmouthMark

I say "Kay-beck", but I have heard others say "Kwee-beck". Your version is not uncommon, though. I think the most common I hear is a quick, abbreviated "Kuh-beck", where you just hear the "K" (Qu) consonant pronunciation followed quickly by "beck". Kbec, basically.

Edit: I might add that I'm only talking about my east coast brethren. There is probably somewhat of a variation as you cross our vast country, given that there are many other local pronunciations (dialects, really) for Anglos across Canada. I've never really paid attention to how they pronounce Québec, though.

Surely, "Kweebeck" only in jest, or to convey contempt. "Kuhbeck" would just be "Kwuhbeck" with poor enunciation.

[ToxiK]

Originally Posted by New Brisavoine

French grammar's point:

"Vive Québec" means "Long live Québec City".
"Vive le Québec" means "Long live Québec (the province)".



Ditto: Vive le Canada, Vive les Etats-Unis, Vive le Mexique, Vive la France, Vive l'UE, etc. But Vive Montréal, Vive Toronto, Vive New York, Vive Paris, etc. Exception in the exception: Vive La Nouvelle-Orléans.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tv5LEjeWz-E

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by OldDartmouthMark

You are an emotional bunch, aren't you?

I thought everyone knew they were.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by OldDartmouthMark

I don’t think that Ontario-west would join the US (although… Alberta? ). I think it would be a new version of Canada.

Currently, though, the Atlantic Provinces are mostly considered a financial drain by the ROC (which includes Quebec, BTW), and I could see a struggling ‘New Canada’ cutting ties in order to survive (or thrive) financially. Quebec going rogue would physically isolate us from the other ROC, so why not?

Mind you, they would lose a strategic east coast port, but perhaps it wouldn’t be considered necessary anymore. Quebec might attempt to annex the Acadien parts of NB, though, but I suspect they would do everything possible to eliminate Halifax’s competitiveness as an eastern port in order to protect Montreal’s hold on it.

To your point, if the Maritimes or NL were ever to become a US territory, it wouldn’t be from some desire of the citizens to become American, or some sudden realization that we are just the same as them so we may as well be part of them. It would be financially necessary, or it could happen forcefully if the US perceived a broken Canada and separated Quebec as being a threat.

.

The Maritimes in particular are one of the most « Canadian » parts of Canada, identity-wise.

Given that the Canadian identity is largely built on NOT being American I’d be really shocked if they joined the US even if Quebec became independent and they were cut off from Ontario.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by OldDartmouthMark

FWIW, aside from the language differences, is Quebec really all that different from America? I’d argue that your politics are a little further to the right than your ROC, and the isolationist ideals are a different flavour, but more in line with the US than Canada. Food for thought.

I don’t think this is true. Quebec barely has anti-abortion and pro-gun movements, is for state intervention in the economy, and has the most generous social programs and the highest taxes in North America.

ROCers try to label us as right wing because we don’t have an automatic hard-on for diversity and woke stuff which is what passes for progressivism in Anglo North America these days.

But to us your reverence for religions appears conservative and backwards.

Finally if Quebec « isn’t all that different from the US » then that means the ROC is identical to the US. Both these things may in fact be true BTW.

[Loco101]

Originally Posted by OldDartmouthMark

Both.

For the Maritimes part... nah. If Quebec were to separate, "Canada" would probably work out some deal for a customs-protected transportation route either through Quebec or the US (probably the US, as it would be a more efficient route), and continue to use the easternmost provinces for shipping, Navy, fishing, etc. etc. etc.. Halifax would actually gain importance as a shipping port, given that Montreal would no longer be part of Canada.

For the Quebec sovereignty part, it would be an extremely bold and risky move, IMHO. People will respond emotionally in the polls all day long, because there are no consequences to saying that you want sovereignty!! Vive Quebec!!! and all that. But when it comes to paying the bills, there will be a lot to lose, and level heads would likely prevail.

IMHO... but it doesn't matter what I think, really. I didn't think the US should vote in Trump, but they just signed up for another 4(+) years of crazy, so...

You do realize that even the most hardcore separatist in Quebec still wants open borders just like we have now? The closest comparison that comes to mind is what you see with the Republic of Ireland and Northern Ireland being part of the UK.

Today Quebec overall is more about nationalism and not separation from the Canadian federation compared to 20-40 years ago. I don't see many Quebecers wanting to go back to the economic uncertainty.

[Loco101]

Originally Posted by Acajack

The Maritimes in particular are one of the most « Canadian » parts of Canada, identity-wise.

Given that the Canadian identity is largely built on NOT being American I’d be really shocked if they joined the US even if Quebec became independent and they were cut off from Ontario.

The "Not American" thing seems to be more common the closer you are to the American border. It's not really something you hear where I live.

[OldDartmouthMark]

Originally Posted by kwoldtimer

Surely, "Kweebeck" only in jest, or to convey contempt.

No, that would be Kawee-beck... the former, without a drawn out "ee" would be something I'd expect to hear from older folk in more rural areas.

Originally Posted by kwoldtimer

"Kuhbeck" would just be "Kwuhbeck" with poor enunciation.

Not really, it's more like a lazy "Kay-beck", K'bek perhaps is the best way I can describe it.

That said, things are probably pronounced differently in KW?

[Loco101]

Originally Posted by Acajack

I don’t think this is true. Quebec barely has anti-abortion and pro-gun movements, is for state intervention in the economy, and has the most generous social programs and the highest taxes in North America.

ROCers try to label us as right wing because we don’t have an automatic hard-on for diversity and woke stuff which is what passes for progressivism in Anglo North America these days.

But to us your reverence for religions appears conservative and backwards.

Finally if Quebec « isn’t all that different from the US » then that means the ROC is identical to the US. Both these things may in fact be true BTW.

Much of Canada outside Quebec is pretty secular as well. I don't find that diversity and woke stuff are all that different here either for most people. The media and some politicians are bigger about it here but on the ground there aren't really noticeable differences.

[OldDartmouthMark]

Originally Posted by Acajack

I thought everyone knew they were.

We do now, for sure.

[OldDartmouthMark]

Originally Posted by Acajack

The Maritimes in particular are one of the most « Canadian » parts of Canada, identity-wise.

Given that the Canadian identity is largely built on NOT being American I’d be really shocked if they joined the US even if Quebec became independent and they were cut off from Ontario.

You're probably right, but it would be interesting (and that's to say, stressful) to see how things would work out economically speaking.

[OldDartmouthMark]

Originally Posted by Acajack

I don’t think this is true. Quebec barely has anti-abortion and pro-gun movements, is for state intervention in the economy, and has the most generous social programs and the highest taxes in North America.

ROCers try to label us as right wing because we don’t have an automatic hard-on for diversity and woke stuff which is what passes for progressivism in Anglo North America these days.

But to us your reverence for religions appears conservative and backwards.

Finally if Quebec « isn’t all that different from the US » then that means the ROC is identical to the US. Both these things may in fact be true BTW.

On the surface, the ideology appears to have similarities, but you're right in that you are more Canadian than American.

Not sure about the reverence for religions, though. I think you are confusing that with respect for peoples' right to religion... or another branch of 'wokeness' perhaps?

[OldDartmouthMark]

Originally Posted by Loco101

You do realize that even the most hardcore separatist in Quebec still wants open borders just like we have now? The closest comparison that comes to mind is what you see with the Republic of Ireland and Northern Ireland being part of the UK.

Today Quebec overall is more about nationalism and not separation from the Canadian federation compared to 20-40 years ago. I don't see many Quebecers wanting to go back to the economic uncertainty.

I'm not sure what it would look like actually. Sovereignty means separating from the Canadian federation to me, otherwise it's just another province struggling to maintain its identity in a sea of other provinces who have other priorities.

If it were a complete separation from Canada, then it may not matter what Quebec still wants. If Quebec is remaining a province in Canada that wants to be thought of as a nation, then I don't see things being any differently from the outside. Fill yer boots.

[OldDartmouthMark]

Originally Posted by Loco101

The "Not American" thing seems to be more common the closer you are to the American border. It's not really something you hear where I live.

The "Not American" thing isn't something I ever hear of here, other than perhaps people shaking their heads at whatever nonsense is going on in the US during any random week.

The only time I recall of somebody calling it out was from a Japanese colleague who told me that before he came to Canada he thought Canadians and Americans were the same, but once he became familiar with both countries and had gotten to know people, he said that he almost couldn't believe how different we were. His words, not mine.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by OldDartmouthMark

Not sure about the reverence for religions, though. I think you are confusing that with respect for peoples' right to religion... or another branch of 'wokeness' perhaps?

Seeing religion as an unchangeable thing that is innate to people and therefore an acceptable way to get out of following some of the rules of society is reverence for religion to me, and goes beyond simple respect.

This difference in the view of religion is at the heart of the discord between the ROC and Quebec over stuff like Bill 21.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by Loco101

Much of Canada outside Quebec is pretty secular as well. I don't find that diversity and woke stuff are all that different here either for most people. The media and some politicians are bigger about it here but on the ground there aren't really noticeable differences.

Just an example we don’t have classes in public schools decorated in rainbow flags and other LBGTQ messaging in Quebec, or rainbow crosswalks outside of maybe Le Village in downtown Montreal.

Our rates of kids identifying as trans or non-binary are basically the lowest in the country.

Now, this stuff is still present in Quebec, just way way less ubiquitous.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by OldDartmouthMark

On the surface, the ideology appears to have similarities, but you're right in that you are more Canadian than American.

No argument from me there. I consider Quebec to be the most Canadian province in the country.

As such one could almost view Québécois nationalism or even independence as a last-ditch effort to save Canadianity.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by OldDartmouthMark

The "Not American" thing isn't something I ever hear of here, other than perhaps people shaking their heads at whatever nonsense is going on in the US during any random week.

The only time I recall of somebody calling it out was from a Japanese colleague who told me that before he came to Canada he thought Canadians and Americans were the same, but once he became familiar with both countries and had gotten to know people, he said that he almost couldn't believe how different we were. His words, not mine.

I think the "NOT American" thing is probably so ingrained that most people don't notice it anymore.

But even if it isn't, people in the Maritimes do have a very strong Canadian identity. I think most people would agree with that.

In this sense, they see themselves as "NOT American", "NOT Brazilian", "NOT Burmese", "NOT Nepali", etc. I.e. not anything else but Canadian.

So in light of this it would be very odd to see them pursue union with the US and not tough it out for a very long time with what would be left of Canada, even if they were geographically separated from it by a new country called Quebec.

I know the economic reason has been cited but Canadians have for 150 years or more chosen a somewhat lower standard of living over joining or cozying up more to the Americans.

I don't see why that would change all of a sudden if Quebec became independent.

If anything you'd probably see Canadian nationalism get a lot stronger in Canada-sans-Québec.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by Loco101

The "Not American" thing seems to be more common the closer you are to the American border. It's not really something you hear where I live.

Not sure how you define "close to the border". Is Ottawa close to the border? Because it's a very common sentiment in Ottawa. (Keeping in mind that something like 80% of Canadians live within 200 km of the US border.)

Even if not voiced in blunt terms, it's there. Many reactions to the US election results were certainly consistent with that identity pillar. I.e. "woo-hoo at least we're better than the Americans!"

Do the French and British react to each other's elections in that way? Not really. And they're millennial neighbours, rivals and even enemies.