CF Pacific Centre Developments

[Vin]

Originally Posted by Changing City

It's not unusual for sudden closures of large retail companies to take some time to sort out. The closure of Woodwards took decades to sort out. The huge Spencer's store was redeveloped with the Harbour Centre, which took several years (and then the new Sears there closed, leaving another empty space for some time before the building was remodeled again).

It looks like the Rideau Centre and Chinook Centre Nordstrom's spaces are also still vacant, with no announced replacement. It's only two of the Toronto departmental store spaces that have leased - I think Sherway Gardens may be empty too.

Woodwards was a writeoff after the City/Province ran the DTES to the ground with social problems. The entire DTES is still being "sorted out".
The switch from Spencer to Eatons to Sears to SFU: I'm sure none of the transitional period was 4 years or more (as per Four Seasons Hotel at Pacific Centre mall). Even if Nordstrom space is taken over today, the renovations would have taken another 1-2 years. That would total about 3.5-4 years in transition.

Rideau/Chinook Centres and Sherway Gardens are all in the suburbs, unlike our Nordstrom in a very central and desirable part of Vancouver's CBD. That makes a world of difference.

Originally Posted by dreambrother808

Over 8000 posts about how Vancouver is a horrible place. Impressive consistency.

Just to balance the glory poured on this City and the irresponsible comments on the real problems here. I still live in this city and obviously find the positives to be here, but unlike yourself, I am not ignorant to its problems. In fact, I love highlighting them and triggering folks like yourself.

You are right that I am consistent.

[s211]

Originally Posted by whatnext

Saw this in Bloomberg and couldn't help wondering the pension plan involvement is effecting decision making at CF:

Real estate bets gone wrong roil US$1.24 trillion Canadian funds
Ari Altstedter and Layan Odeh, Bloomberg News

...“What’s worked famously well for the last 35 years may not work so well for the next five to 10,” Jo Taylor, chief executive officer of the $248 billion Ontario Teachers’ Pension Plan, said in an interview at Bloomberg’s Toronto office.

Taylor’s fund is grappling with the worst four-year run at its real estate operation since it was transformed by the acquisition of a business called Cadillac Fairview in 2000. That company came to be one of the fund’s crown jewels and the single biggest in its portfolio. But last year, Taylor took authority for most future real estate investments away from Cadillac Fairview and brought them in-house, just like the plan’s other asset classes....


https://www.bnnbloomberg.ca/real-estate-...s-1-24-trillion-canadian-funds-1.2088707

The woes are largely driven by the turmoil in the office market sector. Office buildings, by virtue of their larger dollar values, were an easy way for pension funds and others to quickly build their real estate portfolios. The sector was largely profitable for many years.

Across their portfolios, all real estate investment classes have seen values hit during to rising cap rates, at a time when they were coming off historical lows. Pension funds had to mark-to-market their values, enjoying large capital gains over the past decade but that bloom is now gone.

[C3YVR]

CFs continuing inability to sign a new hotel operator to take over the Four Seasons, after having well over six years since it was announced they were leaving, shows how leaderless they really have become. Their recent attempt to control the narrative is just completely cringeworthy. To admit they still don't have a plan for the hotel or former Nordstrom space, but not admit to the harm it is doing the Vancouver tourism and retail industries, just shows how out of touch they really are. The next thing they should do is hire a PR firm to stop them from making insensitive comments and show they actually care about the community they do business in - not to mention the retailers that operate in their mall.

https://www.biv.com/news/retail-manufact...rdstrom-space-could-linger-empty-9120186

[Vin]

Originally Posted by C3YVR

CFs continuing inability to sign a new hotel operator to take over the Four Seasons, after having well over six years since it was announced they were leaving, shows how leaderless they really have become. Their recent attempt to control the narrative is just completely cringeworthy. To admit they still don't have a plan for the hotel or former Nordstrom space, but not admit to the harm it is doing the Vancouver tourism and retail industries, just shows how out of touch they really are. The next thing they should do is hire a PR firm to stop them from making insensitive comments and show they actually care about the community they do business in - not to mention the retailers that operate in their mall.

https://www.biv.com/news/retail-manufact...rdstrom-space-could-linger-empty-9120186

Think of the millions lost to the retired teachers in Ontario as well. They should have a board overhaul, and then employ better hotel and retail sales management people to get their premises leased out.

Originally Posted by SFUVancouver

Just one more downtown mall away of greatness, if memory serves.

This is what happens when there is a monopoly happening downtown.

[officedweller]

Adjacent to Pacific Centre on Howe -
work on the Howe St. tunnel roof membrane
(the steam pipes are really close to the surface here, which is why there's a buckle in the pavement in the crosswalk there)

[officedweller]

Sent around the office:

DATE: October 7, 2024

ATTENTION: All Office Tenants – 700 West Georgia

WHAT: Installation of New Illuminated Pylon Sign

WHEN: October 28, 2024

IMPACT: On the above noted date, a new freestanding and illuminated 700 West Georgia sign will be erected on the TD Plaza next to the east entrance. Preparations will commence this week and the scope of work will include installation of hoarding, preparation for electrical connections, concrete work, installation of pylon sign, and restoration of the area.

This is the area now:


https://www.google.com/maps/@49.2826931,..._ep=EgoyMDI0MTAwNS4yIKXMDSoASAFQAw%3D%3D

[jollyburger]

Sign & Awning Permit SI-2024-00240Issued
Application Date: Jun, 04, 2024
Issue Date: Jun 17, 2024
Completed Date:

Details
Scope of the Permit: Sign
Type: Sign & Awning Permit
Primary Location: 700 W GEORGIA STREET, Vancouver, BC V7Y 1K8
Specific Location: Facing 700 West Georgia Street - 3.6 meters from property line, next to "pacific centre" vestibule

Work Description: to install one (1) new illuminated free standing sign on the north east elevation of this existing commercial building as follows: "700 WEST GEORGIA" "FARRIS LLP" "LOGO - ALEXANDER HOLBURN" "LOGO - MILLER THOMSON" "LOGO - CUSHMAN & WAKEFIELD" "4 LOGO'S" "A CF PROPERTY" Structural Schedule B - Brian Lytton P.Eng - (604)-467-6904

Type of Sign: Free-Standing

https://plposweb.vancouver.ca/Public/Default.aspx?PossePresentation=Guest&PosseObjectId=233722168

[officedweller]

Yeah, probably a bigger version of the one in the window.
Cushman Wakefield is new though.


https://www.google.com/maps/@49.2826931,..._ep=EgoyMDI0MTAwNS4yIKXMDSoASAFQAw%3D%3D

[jollyburger]

Originally Posted by officedweller

Yeah, probably a bigger version of the one in the window.
Cushman Wakefield is new though.

They announced it last year.

Cushman and Wakefield will relocate to 17,000 SF on the 12th floor of 700 West Georgia St

https://www.naibc.ca/wp-content/uploads/2023/07/NAI_Vancouver-Office-Report_Q2-2023.pdf

[theKB]

Originally Posted by C3YVR

CFs continuing inability to sign a new hotel operator to take over the Four Seasons, after having well over six years since it was announced they were leaving, shows how leaderless they really have become. Their recent attempt to control the narrative is just completely cringeworthy. To admit they still don't have a plan for the hotel or former Nordstrom space, but not admit to the harm it is doing the Vancouver tourism and retail industries, just shows how out of touch they really are. The next thing they should do is hire a PR firm to stop them from making insensitive comments and show they actually care about the community they do business in - not to mention the retailers that operate in their mall.

https://www.biv.com/news/retail-manufact...rdstrom-space-could-linger-empty-9120186

The interesting part is that CF Eaton Centre conversion of the Nordstrom Space started almost immediately after the announcement of Eataly and Simons taking space.

My true curiosity is if the rents they want for these spaces doesn't pencil for essentially anything but a store like nordstrom that did largely luxury goods with high margins. I would also expect the TI inducements for any conversion will be substantial investments as well. The Vancouver proposition with its high rates and crazy property tax probably doesn't work so well considering the lack of population and tough salary landscape for people that may frequest a store like Simons.

[whatnext]

Originally Posted by theKB

The interesting part is that CF Eaton Centre conversion of the Nordstrom Space started almost immediately after the announcement of Eataly and Simons taking space.

My true curiosity is if the rents they want for these spaces doesn't pencil for essentially anything but a store like nordstrom that did largely luxury goods with high margins. I would also expect the TI inducements for any conversion will be substantial investments as well. The Vancouver proposition with its high rates and crazy property tax probably doesn't work so well considering the lack of population and tough salary landscape for people that may frequest a store like Simons.

One really has to question why they can’t find a hotel operator in that location. Rosewood just put a lot of money into their adjacent property so it’s clearly a viable market. CF must be asking way too much. In the meantime they’ve had an unproductive asset just sitting in the middle of the city for years.

[jollyburger]

2025 will be the year.

One question when Nordstroms decided to exit Canada what happened to their lease? If they got settlement money wouldn't that change the dynamics of the so called empty space.

Liquidation filings

https://www.alvarezandmarsal.com/NordstromCanada

March 2024

reaching definitive agreements on (i) the Claims of Cadillac Fairview Corporation
and its affiliates (collectively, “Cadillac Fairview”), the Landlord of five of the
former Nordstrom full-line stores in Canada, in the CCAA estate and the claims
associated with the indemnities granted by Nordstrom US to Cadillac Fairview in
respect of the Cadillac Fairview Leases, and (ii) the Claims of Oxford Properties
Group (“Oxford”), the Landlord of the former Nordstrom Yorkdale full-line store
in Canada, in the CCAA estate and the claims associated with the indemnity granted
by Nordstrom US to Oxford in respect of the Yorkdale Lease, in each case, to
resolve such indemnity claims and to provide a framework for the resolution of the
respective Claims in the CCAA estate;

https://www.alvarezandmarsal.com/sites/d...C%20Inc.%20et%20al%20-%2008-MAR-2024.pdf

15. The six former Nordstrom full-line store Leases are subject to indemnities granted by
Nordstrom US in favour of the applicable Landlord.16 As outlined above, the Nordstrom Canada
Entities have reached agreements in principle (subject to the execution of mutually agreeable
definitive documentation) on (a) the Claims of Cadillac Fairview, the Landlord of five of the
former Nordstrom full-line stores in Canada, in the CCAA estate and the claims associated with
the indemnities granted by Nordstrom US to Cadillac Fairview, and (b) the Claims of Oxford, the

Landlord of the former Nordstrom Yorkdale full-line store in Canada, in the CCAA estate and the
claims associated with the indemnity granted by Nordstrom US to Oxford, in each case, to resolve
such indemnity claims and to provide a framework for the resolution of the respective Claims in
the CCAA estate.17 These agreements are a significant milestone in the CCAA proceedings, as
Cadillac Fairview and Oxford’s Claims were collectively by far the largest third-party Claims filed
in the Claims Process, and will resolve all issues surrounding the Leases for the Nordstrom fullline stores in Canada.

https://www.alvarezandmarsal.com/sites/d...%20Inc.%20et%20al%20-%2022-SEPT-2023.PDF

[s211]

Originally Posted by whatnext

One really has to question why they can’t find a hotel operator in that location. Rosewood just put a lot of money into their adjacent property so it’s clearly a viable market. CF must be asking way too much. In the meantime they’ve had an unproductive asset just sitting in the middle of the city for years.

I wonder if CF might have grander plans being considered for the hotel portion of the overall development. Pure speculation on my part.

[theKB]

apologies - double posted

[jollyburger]

Originally Posted by s211

I wonder if CF might have grander plans being considered for the hotel portion of the overall development. Pure speculation on my part.

Seems doubtful considering how disruptive it would be to the rest of the mall. I mean if they wanted grander plans they would tear down Nordstroms

[Vin]

Originally Posted by s211

I wonder if CF might have grander plans being considered for the hotel portion of the overall development. Pure speculation on my part.

Why would I, a well-known hotel chain, invest so much for the lease of a property only to be sued by the landlord, who used to bully the previous tenant, a world-renowned hotel chain, that their hotel was just not "lux" enough for the Pacific Centre Mall?

Cadillac Fairview plans to replace Four Seasons Vancouver with new luxury hotel
https://www.biv.com/news/hospitality-mar...Four,how%20hotel%20chains%20are%20ranked

I would steer clear from this bully landlord.

[jollyburger]

Originally Posted by Vin

Why would I, a well-known hotel chain, invest so much for the lease of a property only to be sued by the landlord, who used to bully the previous tenant, a world-renowned hotel chain, that their hotel was just not "lux" enough for the Pacific Centre Mall?

I would steer clear from this bully landlord.

It's called business. If they want a friendly relationship with their landlord they should own their building.

[officedweller]

You would think that Cadillac Fairview would have an obligation to mitigate its damages by using reasonable efforts to find a replacement tenant in a reasonable period of time. However, I don't know if that applies in a liquidation/receivership situation where there is a negotiated settlement. It would depend on the terms of settlement with Nordstrom US, who is paying the damages to Cadillac Fairview.

[hollywoodnorth]

I heard from someone who manages a major hotel in the city that there are problems with the concrete structure in the old Four Seasons Hotel that were uncovered while it was being renovated and apparently it will be too costly/difficult to fix. thats why it has been empty for so long. I dunno but something funky is going on here for sure. If the reno was straight forward it would be finished already OR at the very least underway now so it could be finished in time for the 2026 Wold Cup cash cow ...... like I said something smells funky here.

anyone hear anything like that?

[officedweller]

The office towers at Pacific Centre are all steel frame.
Not sure why the Four Seasons wouldn't also be steel frame.