Quebec, the French Language, and Quebecois Identity

[AverageMonctonEnjoyr]

Originally Posted by Acajack

Who says I'm a separatist?

There’s a common misconception that we’re all crazed anti-anglophone separatists lol

[AverageMonctonEnjoyr]

Originally Posted by Acajack

Also note that there is absolutely nothing going on politically in Canada that would indicate that abortion could be (re)criminalized here at any point in the foreseeable future. (Yes we have anti-abortion activists and some of them are elected officials, but they are a small minority and no one with any real power or who could have real power is talking about this.)

There’s no way abortion could be a huge talking point in the upcoming federal elections like it was in the USA. Both parties seem to be pro-abortion ( liberal and conservative ) as Pierre Poilievre was anti abortion a while ago but is currently for it in his campaign. Our election’s biggest talking point will surely just be the economy and immigration.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by AverageMonctonEnjoyr

There’s no way abortion could be a huge talking point in the upcoming federal elections like it was in the USA. Both parties seem to be pro-abortion ( liberal and conservative ) as Pierre Poilievre was anti abortion a while ago but is currently for it in his campaign. Our election’s biggest talking point will surely just be the economy and immigration.

We are all smart enough to know to never say never in politics, but yeah at this point in Canada any huge concern about abortion becoming illegal here is mostly Canucks larping as Americans because they watched House of Cards and got their news from The Daily Show with Jon Stewart.

[elly63]

Has anyone seen this

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by AverageMonctonEnjoyr

There’s a common misconception that we’re all crazed anti-anglophone separatists lol

Simply being concerned about the future of French and pointing out real statistics and trends makes one an (evil) separatist.

It's quite ironic because I've always said that a strong French language in Quebec and in francophone communities outside of it is a huge plus for the Canadian unity argument. More than one commentator has said that ironically Bill 101 (a Parti Québécois policy) played a big role in the 1995 victory by the Non side because it removed a lot of the linguistic irritants. Now those irritants are coming back in a big way.

I am not sure that Canadian unity won't be seriously comprised if French continues its relative decline.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by elly63

Has anyone seen this

Yes I have. I am actually in it. I have a bit of a "cameo" of sorts.

[elly63]

Originally Posted by Acajack

Yes I have. I am actually in it. I have a bit of a "cameo" of sorts.

It was quite interesting and definitely not a shock. I don't really mean this nastily but it portrayed the perfect way to infiltrate organizations.

It reminded me of a documentary about East German male spies setting up honey pots for West German women close to political power. One of the spy masters described how they played the end game, possibly for decades or as long as it took to infiltrate the system or gain the confidence of the women.

[OldDartmouthMark]

Originally Posted by AverageMonctonEnjoyr

There’s a common misconception that we’re all crazed anti-anglophone separatists lol

If you’re referring to me, then that’s not the case.

I find that too many people like to pigeonhole others into convenient categories, though, especially on the internet. ‘Oh those old guy anglophones are all alike’…

Acajack and I have been having discussions on this forum for a long time, and I think he knows when I am giving him a good-natured jab. If not I hope he will figure it out…

Thanks for your concern, though.

[OldDartmouthMark]

Originally Posted by Acajack

Simply being concerned about the future of French and pointing out real statistics and trends makes one an (evil) separatist.

It's quite ironic because I've always said that a strong French language in Quebec and in francophone communities outside of it is a huge plus for the Canadian unity argument. More than one commentator has said that ironically Bill 101 (a Parti Québécois policy) played a big role in the 1995 victory by the Non side because it removed a lot of the linguistic irritants. Now those irritants are coming back in a big way.

I am not sure that Canadian unity won't be seriously comprised if French continues its relative decline.

I thought you would know that I would never think of you as a separatist (New Bris? Maybe a remote separatist? ), even when you use “ROC”, etc. I know you are just differentiating between Quebec and everyone else. However it does illustrate how triggered we all are nowadays and how things can spiral quickly on the internet.

And don’t even try to tell me that you don’t get a shot in every now and then!

[Acajack]

Note that being called a "separatist" is not an insult for me.

The problem I have is when people simply standing up for francophones and their language, or even defending Quebec, are automatically and dismissively labelled separatists.

[OldDartmouthMark]

Originally Posted by Acajack

Note that being called a "separatist" is not an insult for me.

The problem I have is when people simply standing up for francophones and their language, or even defending Quebec, are automatically and dismissively labelled separatists.

As I see it, none of the above would qualify anyone as being a “separatist”.

IMHO, the grey area begins when people start actively supporting the idea of actually breaking up the country by taking Quebec out of Canada (i.e. perhaps Quebec’s currency should be the Euro, etc.), but even then simple discussion doesn’t make one a ‘separatist’.

FWIW, I don’t find the idea repulsive, but I do worry about what it would do to both Canada and Quebec. I also don’t consider the label an insult, but just a word that some people use to describe people who are proponents of splitting up the country. I’ll always be a Canadian, no matter what happens, so it’s not my concern whether someone else has different ideas. But we old guy anglos (like Moncton and I) all think alike anyhow, so you already know everything I’m thinking.

[OldDartmouthMark]

Originally Posted by Acajack

On a higher level going beyond the abortion issue in isolation, yes the US and what goes on inside its borders influences the entire world (especially western countries) but there are still lots of examples of things that are crazy in the US that haven't taken root even in Canada despite the fact we are right next door.

So I still do think that a lot of the interest in internal issues of the US is because many Canadians feel US issues in their bones, as if they're taking place "at home" because "home" psychologically extends to the US.

Here is an example of high school students in Ottawa marching on Parliament to demand gun control *in the US* after yet another school shooting down there. Apparently at the height of the march there were 3000 students participating. (Note that Canada already has gun control and school shootings are extremely rare here.)

https://www.cbc.ca/lite/story/1.4591543

I think that particular example is a side effect of the generation being raised on social media, thus very compelling, personal experiences of kids being gunned down in school has instilled a very palpable feeling of fear and anxiety for kids in the states, and Canadian kids who follow them and empathize with them. This wouldn’t have happened 30 years ago because the events would have been reported in a cold newspaper article on page 10 or a 30 second segment on the Canadian news reports.

The internet has changed the feeling that this is a big world and something that happens in another country is so remote that it has nothing to do with us, to everything that happens everywhere is our business, especially if the algorithm has fed it to us. As you know, this is a huge part of why previously remote and/or isolated cultures are being affected, and perhaps watered down, depending upon your POV, by mostly US influences.

Unfortunately, these algorithms don’t provide context or information that might be important to the understanding of such situations, and thus the kids being seemingly unaware that some aspects of their movement are actually inappropriate in terms of Canadian culture and politics.

[New Brisavoine]

Originally Posted by AverageMonctonEnjoyr

Our election’s biggest talking point will surely just be the economy and immigration.

And not the melting ice cap in the Canadian Arctic and dwindling populations of polar bears??

Last week the Franco-German channel Arte had an entire evening dedicated to it.

[New Brisavoine]

Originally Posted by OldDartmouthMark

even when you use “ROC”

Interestingly "ROC" is never used in French. At least I've never heard it. We say "le Canada anglophone".

PS: For some reason we never say "le Canada francophone". Don't ask me why. Languages!

PPS: Thinking about it, I think perhaps because French Canada is just basically Québec now, we just say "le Québec". Perhaps if Québec + New Brunswick + Manitoba + Saskatchewan were all entirely Francophone we would say "le Canada francophone" in French to refer to this large group.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by New Brisavoine

Interestingly "ROC" is never used in French. At least I've never heard it. We say "le Canada anglophone".

PS: For some reason we never say "le Canada francophone". Don't ask me why. Languages!

"dans le ROC" is sometimes used in Quebec in French. "ROC" is pronounced the English way.

We also often say "dans le reste du Canada", and "le Québec et le Canada" is common too. The latter one irks some people but even federalists often slip up and use it.

[New Brisavoine]

Originally Posted by Acajack

Note that being called a "separatist" is not an insult for me.

The problem I have is when people simply standing up for francophones and their language, or even defending Quebec, are automatically and dismissively labelled separatists.

I guess some see you as a separatist because you present the pros of the independence project, and not just the cons.

My feeling reading you is like many Québécois the sentimental part of you is quite tempted by the idea of independence, but the serious/brainy part of you is more reserved about it. You're a bit torn appart, like many people in Québec.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by New Brisavoine

PPS: Thinking about it, I think perhaps because French Canada is just basically Québec now, we just say "le Québec". Perhaps if Québec + New Brunswick + Manitoba + Saskatchewan were all entirely Francophone we would say "le Canada francophone" in French to refer to this large group.

In the way that you say "la Suisse romande" in reference to French-speaking Switzerland. Since no one canton dominates the francophone part of the country.

I find francophone Belgium hard to sum up too. One is tempted to say Wallonie but Brussels is mostly francophone but not part of it.

[New Brisavoine]

Originally Posted by Acajack

"dans le ROC" is sometimes used in Quebec in French. "ROC" is pronounced the English way.

If you said "le ROC" to me, I would be thinking about chess. But then I'm a former chess player.

Originally Posted by Acajack

We also often say "dans le reste du Canada", and "le Québec et le Canada" is common too. The latter one irks some people but even federalists often slip up and use it.

"Dans le reste du Canada" would not be used in Europe. That's something one would say if they live in Québec. As for using "Canada" alone to refer to Anglophone Canada, yes, we talked about that a few months ago, some French newspapers now use it that way (as when the French prime minister last visited Canada).

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by New Brisavoine

I guess some see you as a separatist because you present the pros of the independence project, and not just the cons.

My feeling reading you is like many Québécois the sentimental part of you is quite tempted by the idea of independence, but the serious/brainy part of you is more reserved about it. You're a bit torn appart, like many people in Québec.

I think it's way less common to discuss the pros and cons in the ROC than in Quebec, so many ROCers tend to be a bit shocked when someone does that, and assume that people who do so are hard-core separatists. Whereas we're just discussing politics the way they are often discussed in Quebec.

[New Brisavoine]

Originally Posted by Acajack

I find francophone Belgium hard to sum up too. One is tempted to say Wallonie but Brussels is mostly francophone but not part of it.

We say "les Francophones". For example: "L'extrême-droite est très puissante en Flandre, mais elle n'a jamais réussi à s'imposer chez les Francophones." That's typically what a French newspaper would write.

A French MP some 10 years ago said that France would "défendre les Francophones" (in the near disintegration of Belgium that they had 10 yeas ago).