Quebec, the French Language, and Quebecois Identity

[New Brisavoine]

Originally Posted by kool maudit

I have never heard it disparaged. Most people say that it has a "sing-songy" quality, but not bumpkin-ish.

Not disparaged, but made fun of (in a light way of course).

Originally Posted by kool maudit

(Sweden is the sick man of Scandinavia)

They brought that on themselves. They tried to be the "Canada" of Europe, with the same consequences as visible in Toronto, and far worse as their immigration was predominantly from what today's victor in the election-that-shall-not-be-named () graciously calls "sh*thole countries".

[AverageMonctonEnjoyr]

Originally Posted by lio45

New Brisavoine's recent post about how grey Northern winters are made me think of him actually. I'm sure I don't need to explain which song

There's nowhere here that doesn't get at least some sun from time to time, regardless of the time of year, so that's quite foreign to us here.

Emmenez-moi ?

[mousquet]

Originally Posted by New Brisavoine

Fucking weather forecast had said we would have 3 days of sunshine with temperature around 16 degrees, and now suddenly it's been changed to all gray and no more than 12 degrees.

Meanwhile, 20 degrees and sunshine in Toulouse today. I was thinking earlier today, why didn't our kings establish they capital in southern France?!!

It's not like the southern half of the country would be the quaint haven that everybody dreams of.
Sure, weather down south is usually mild, merciful, pleasant, whatever you call it.
But then it may suddenly be struck by any kind of mad wildfire or (worse) flood that would put it all at stake.
We've seen it in Nice's area already.

I'm sure you watched what's happening to Valencia's province in eastern Spain, that's only 1,400 km (850 miles) south of Paris after all, pretty much next door.
Helpless people drowning in their cars and trucks, taken away by the flood...

A quarter of the French population (17 millions of us) lives in areas likely to be hit by flooding.
That's the report.

Just thinking about the cost of upgrading infrastructure makes me dizzy.
It is dozens of billion euros of expense to come, while our government is already broke because of all the silly socialist expense.
And I know you agree with me on that.

[New Brisavoine]

[mousquet]

^ This is old.
The Paris urban area has had the needed infrastructure to face harsh downpour for quite some time.
They built the necessary stuff along rivers, that's why record flooding doesn't happen anymore over here in the Paris region.

Now Toulouse or Bordeaux? Honestly, I don't know. I'm no expert, but it needs to be watched.

[New Brisavoine]

Actually the reservoirs and dams built since the 1910 flood could cope with at most 40% of the water that fell in 1910. So if another flood of the magnitude of 1910 takes place, they won't prevent the flooding of Paris and its suburbs. All the basement of the Louvre would be flooded in particular, which is a major concern, as many artworks are too massive to be moved on time.

[hipster duck]

Originally Posted by New Brisavoine

Not disparaged, but made fun of (in a light way of course).


They brought that on themselves. They tried to be the "Canada" of Europe, with the same consequences as visible in Toronto, and far worse as their immigration was predominantly from what today's victor in the election-that-shall-not-be-named () graciously calls "sh*thole countries".

Have you ever been to Toronto, or are you just going to reflexively start using "Toronto" as a shorthand the way the American right uses "San Francisco"?

Toronto has had its share of problems caused by Trudeau's immigration scheme, but those problems existed before. Housing was already very expensive in 2015. Traffic was bad in 2015 and transportation infrastructure was deemed inadequate. They are worse now, yes. Relative to where it was in 2015, is the rate of change in Toronto worse than it was in other cities in Canada, including Montreal? No.

But those are material problems. Cultural problems are much harder to tackle. It is remarkable how many immigrants were pushed into the city without any real cultural problems bubbling up to the surface. Yes, immigration as a policy is viewed less favourably than it was in 2015, and, yes, people of Indian descent are at the receiving end of racism from keyboard warriors. But there hasn't been much in the way of physical violence towards Indian people. No riots or spike in unprovoked hate crimes, or things of that nature.

[mousquet]

Originally Posted by New Brisavoine

Actually the reservoirs and dams built since the 1910 flood could cope with at most 40% of the water that fell in 1910. So if another flood of the magnitude of 1910 takes place, they won't prevent the flooding of Paris and its suburbs. All the basement of the Louvre would be flooded in particular, which is a major concern, as many artworks are too massive to be moved on time.

Source? How would you know about that with such accuracy? You're a freaking hydrologist now? Première nouvelle...
We want reliable, scientific source exclusively.

The magnitude of that 1910 flood in Paris is mythological. We all heard of it, but I doubt it would ever happen again.

Some other parts of the country are more of a concern.

[New Brisavoine]

French people on US election day.

[1overcosc]

Y'all made the choice to give up North America. You gave up Canada and the Upper Midwest for Guadeloupe & Martinique (the British would have absolutely been ok with going the other way if you had preferred), and then Napoleon sold the rest to the Americans to pay for his wars.

[New Brisavoine]

Originally Posted by mousquet

Source? How would you know about that with such accuracy? You're a freaking hydrologist now?

Dude, I know.



Valérie Pécresse wanted to build more water retention capacity near Montereau-Fault-Yonne, but the Greens are of course opposed to it.

The truth is, if it rains as much as in 1910, it will be a major disaster for Paris. Estimates are in the hundreds of BILLIONS of euros of damages, as the population is 3 times larger than in 1910.

The only difference with the Med is our floods are slow, the water rises slowly. It's not flash flooding like on the Med. On the other hand the water also stays longer, much longer (45 days in 1910), which compounds damages. So no loss of life, but very, VERY big damages. The Paris Region is alas not ready.

[New Brisavoine]

Originally Posted by hipster duck

Have you ever been to Toronto, or are you just going to reflexively start using "Toronto" as a shorthand the way the American right uses "San Francisco"?

I'm just repeating what people have said in this very thread.

SF doesn't experience as much immigration and population increase as either Toronto or Sweden. Sweden was very much like Ontario, insanely high immigration intake, except in Sweden's case it was far more low-skilled and criminally violent immigration than in the case of Ontario, so the problems in Sweden are far worse than in Ontario.

[ToxiK]

Originally Posted by New Brisavoine

French people on US election day.

https://www.youtube.com/shorts/ud-z1XPGW4o?app=desktop

[New Brisavoine]

So, Trump victory good for the PQ's prospects?

[New Brisavoine]

(side note: in an article in Le Figaro, yet another USian of French-Canadian descent with the two parts of her family name attached and the weird capital letter in the middle...)

À ses côtés ses compagnons disent avoir noué des amitiés pour la vie pendant les meetings trumpiens. Kathy LaMirande, originaire du Maine, en affichait 37, d'autres 200 ! « Trump va sauver le pays de l'inflation et sécurisera la frontière. On veut aussi qu'il mette un coup d'arrêt à tous ces projets sociétaux des démocrates qui veulent que les garçons participent aux sports de filles sous prétexte d'être inclusifs avec les transgenres. Tout cela va trop loin » , a dit Kathy.

https://www.lefigaro.fr/international/a-...nald-trump-gagne-par-l-euphorie-20241106

[le calmar]

Originally Posted by New Brisavoine

So, Trump victory good for the PQ's prospects?

Hard to tell. But a potential referendum while Trump is president will be... interesting. Would he recognize an independent Quebec? Would he see "opportunities" across the border if Canada were to break apart?

[New Brisavoine]

Anglo-American commentariat following France this morning.

(for those who don't know, Sophie Pedder is The Economist's correspondant in Paris; Michael Shurkin is an American international policy analyst, specialized in African matters)

[New Brisavoine]

Originally Posted by New Brisavoine

So, Trump victory good for the PQ's prospects?

Bon, la question ne semble pas inspirer...

Personally I think it could play two ways.

At the Trump level, if by the time there's a 3rd referendum the prime minister of Canada is a Conservative in very good terms with Trump, then Trump would probably be hostile to the secession of Québec, but I doubt this would have any influence on Québécois voters. If, on the other hand, it's still Trudeau or a look-alike, then Trump should be quite enthusiastic about the secession of Québec, but again I doubt this would influence voters in Québec.

And at the Québec level, a US led by Trump could also play two ways: it could improve the OUI prospects, as a reaction against a nasty Anglophone North America, "let's have our own state to protect us", but it could also convince voters in Québec that they are better off in a large country like Canada better equipped to protect them against a dangerous US, and an independent Québec is too risky with this hostile neighbor south. It's hard to tell which sentiment would prevail.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by New Brisavoine

Bon, la question ne semble pas inspirer...

Personally I think it could play two ways.

At the Trump level, if by the time there's a 3rd referendum the prime minister of Canada is a Conservative in very good terms with Trump, then Trump would probably be hostile to the secession of Québec, but I doubt this would have any influence on Québécois voters. If, on the other hand, it's still Trudeau or a look-alike, then Trump should be quite enthusiastic about the secession of Québec, but again I doubt this would influence voters in Québec.

And at the Québec level, a US led by Trump could also play two ways: it could improve the OUI prospects, as a reaction against a nasty Anglophone North America, "let's have our own state to protect us", but it could also convince voters in Québec that they are better off in a large country like Canada better equipped to protect them against a dangerous US, and an independent Québec is too risky with this hostile neighbor south. It's hard to tell which sentiment would prevail.

J'avais loupé cette question. C'est une journée qui est fertile en sujets de discussion.

Trump tends to be very isolationist so I think there is a good chance that he'd stay out of whatever internal debates we'd have in Canada. He is very unpopular in Quebec so not sure that even a Pierre Poilievre government that might be somewhat pro-Trump would see the usefulness of bringing him on board to help the Non side. In 1995, the Non side did appeal to Bill Clinton who made a couple of pro-Canada and pro-federalism speeches, but he was quite popular in Quebec.

As for Quebecers being afraid of the big bad US, well Canada and ROCers in general have been trying to tell us for decades that the real threat is the US, not Anglophone Canadians. And that we have this in common - Quebec and the ROC vs the US.

Much to the frustration of Anglo-Canadians, Quebecers have always rejected this idea and see Anglo-Canadians and Anglo-Canada as their biggest nemesis and threat.

Under the principle that sure the US is a big dangerous grizzly bear roaming outside the house, but Anglo-Canada is a smaller but still dangerous black bear that is actually inside the house.

This perception in Quebec has never changed no matter who is in power in Washington.

Anecdotally, it's worth mentioning for example that in terms of respecting French as the language of Quebec, American-owned businesses aren't necessarily worse than Canadian-owned businesses (or even businesses owned by Anglo-Quebecers) and are sometimes even better.

You should see how US chains like Walmart and Home Depot operate entirely in French in Quebec, from signage and service to the language of work for staff. It's even the case in western parts of Montreal.

[kwoldtimer]

Originally Posted by Acajack

J'avais loupé cette question. C'est une journée qui est fertile en sujets de discussion.

Trump tends to be very isolationist so I think there is a good chance that he'd stay out of whatever internal debates we'd have in Canada. He is very unpopular in Quebec so not sure that even a Pierre Poilievre government that might be somewhat pro-Trump would see the usefulness of bringing him on board to help the Non side. In 1995, the Non side did appeal to Bill Clinton who made a couple of pro-Canada and pro-federalism speeches, but he was quite popular in Quebec.

As for Quebecers being afraid of the big bad US, well Canada and ROCers in general have been trying to tell us for decades that the real threat is the US, not Anglophone Canadians. And that we have this in common - Quebec and the ROC vs the US.

Much to the frustration of Anglo-Canadians, Quebecers have always rejected this idea and see Anglo-Canadians and Anglo-Canada as their biggest nemesis and threat.

Under the principle that sure the US is a big dangerous grizzly bear roaming outside the house, but Anglo-Canada is a smaller but still dangerous black bear that is actually inside the house.

This perception in Quebec has never changed no matter who is in power in Washington.

Anecdotally, it's worth mentioning for example that in terms of respecting French as the language of Quebec, American-owned businesses aren't necessarily worse than Canadian-owned businesses (or even businesses owned by Anglo-Quebecers) and are sometimes even better.

You should see how US chains like Walmart and Home Depot operate entirely in French in Quebec, from signage and service to the language of work for staff. It's even the case in western parts of Montreal.

Other than the (arguable) idea that MOC represents a bit of a buffer for the Quebec anomaly, I'm not sure I've seen much of that.