Quebec, the French Language, and Quebecois Identity

[New Brisavoine]

Là je crois qu'on touche le fond quand même... https://x.com/LCI/status/1853391319038636214

Je précise que c'est une chaîne télé française ! Le snobisme de ces "journaleux" et le côté presque gênant de vouloir à tout prix ressembler aux Américains n'a plus de limites.

[AverageMonctonEnjoyr]

Originally Posted by New Brisavoine

Là je crois qu'on touche le fond quand même... https://x.com/LCI/status/1853391319038636214

Je précise que c'est une chaîne télé française ! Le snobisme de ces "journaleux" et le côté presque gênant de vouloir à tout prix ressembler aux Américains n'a plus de limites.

France has been glazing the USA for centuries now

[1overcosc]

Originally Posted by New Brisavoine

I don't think there's any physical impossibility. It's more a lack of political will really (or just you guys being subconsciously convinced that it cannot ever happen).

This map shows majority French-speaking and majority English-speaking areas in the census. The green line could be the border of that new Province d'Acadie. Were it India, local politicians would have asked for that separate province long ago already. Even in Switzerland these things happen (the French-speaking canton of Jura separated from the German-speaking canton of Bern in 1978).

Canadian provinces have too much autonomy for this to be workable, as Acadie would be a bit of a basketcase of a province, economically, and be spread over a very unworkable geography. And then of course you have Moncton which has a large francophone population but is itself majority anglophone.

[MonctonRad]

Originally Posted by 1overcosc

Canadian provinces have too much autonomy for this to be workable, as Acadie would be a bit of a basketcase of a province, economically, and be spread over a very unworkable geography. And then of course you have Moncton which has a large francophone population but is itself majority anglophone.

It doesn't matter to these linguistic zealots. They are so hung up on the notion of creating political enclaves as linguistic and ethnocultural safe spaces that they ignore geopolitical and economic realities.

The worst one of course is New Brisavoine. Of course, he has no skin in the game since he is from France. He just relishes being a shit disturber. His hatred for the English language and the "Anglo-Saxon" race is such that he agitates against any form of cooperation, cohabitation or camaraderie between francophones and anglophones as he sees this as an inevitable path towards assimilation, acculturation and accommodation. It is telling that he accuses us of domination, indoctrination and gaslighting and being practitioners of the "Stockholm syndrome" against our francophone relatives, friends and neighbours. What bunk.

I guess as far as NB is concerned, the 50% of the staff of my department who are francophone are a lost cause, and are simply collaborators being led to the slaughter. I guess the minor hockey team that my eldest son coaches (which is 50% Acadian kids) should be immediately disbanded in order to protect them from assimilation. They need to be protected from anglophone influence by being made to play on French speaking teams, with Acadian coaches, and should learn that the anglo kids (former team mates) are just enemies and adversaries who they should not associate with. The two solitudes indeed.........

People like NB want to build walls and barriers. They are segregationists.

This is not my Canada.

In any event, I am now done with this thread - this time for good.

I wonder if the SSP mods should consider just shutting the thread down permanently. It is a toxic environment.

[OldDartmouthMark]

Originally Posted by Acajack

If they wanted to do it they'd have my support.

Interesting that it's never discussed, as francophone New Brunswickers really don't have a strong New Brunswick provincial identity. They are local to Acadia and Canada. When in Acadian regions you see Acadian flags and Canadian flags on homes, and almost never New Brunswick flags.

Note that in a decade or two (probably closer to one), it may no longer be demographically logical to include those areas in the southeast in a hypothetical Acadian province.

Does anybody fly provincial flags at their private homes, though? Very rarely do you even see Canadian flags flown (at least in my part of Canada), but it doesn't mean people don't have a connection to their province or their country, nor does it mean that people who are proud to be Acadian do not also identify as New Brunswickers (or Nova Scotians, etc). We're not Americans, who think that if you don't fly a flag that you aren't patriotic, eh?

I think that sometimes you guys stretch things a little too much to prove a point that nobody outside of francophone Quebec (and one person in France) is trying to make. JMHO.

[New Brisavoine]

Originally Posted by 1overcosc

Canadian provinces have too much autonomy for this to be workable, as Acadie would be a bit of a basketcase of a province, economically

The goal of an Acadie province should be precisely to improve its economy. It is quite an indictment of New Brunswick if it is today a "basketcase"...

That was, by the way, the same rationale for the secession of the Canton of Jura. They felt the Bern cantonal authorities neglected these far-away Francophone districts, and they were economically underdeveloped. Since becoming a canton in 1978 their economy has improved and developed quite a lot.

[New Brisavoine]

Originally Posted by MonctonRad

and the "Anglo-Saxon" race

Anglo-Saxon is not a race.

Originally Posted by MonctonRad

I guess as far as NB is concerned, the 50% of the staff of my department who are francophone are a lost cause, and are simply collaborators being led to the slaughter. I guess the minor hockey team that my eldest son coaches (which is 50% Acadian kids) should be immediately disbanded in order to protect them from assimilation. They need to be protected from anglophone influence by being made to play on French speaking teams, with Acadian coaches, and should learn that the anglo kids (former team mates) are just enemies and adversaries who they should not associate with. The two solitudes indeed.........

Everybody can see you have conveniently avoided quoting or responding to the things AverageMonctonEnjoyr mentioned. They don't fit in your narrative. It's far easier and more comfortable to accuse other people of being evil than to look at one's own shit. As we say in French: "voir la paille dans l’œil du voisin et ne pas voir la poutre dans le sien".

[kool maudit]

Originally Posted by Acajack

I am pretty sure that the people with the real power running Canada in the 19th century never envisioned that French Canadians in Québec, even if a large majority at the time, would ever become as uppity (revendicateurs) as they did starting in the 2nd half of the 20th century.

At best it was a temporary inconvenience and it was felt that with time the problem would disappear as Quebec would become gradually anglicized.

Mordecai Richler famously panicked at the premises of the Quebec independence movement, publishing an article in the New Yorker (and later a book) that leaned heavily on quotations from Lionel Groulx and a fabricated folk song to say that this was something like a Nazi-style movement.

Earlier in his career, however, comparing his Montreal to Saul Bellow's Chicago (Bellow was actually born on Napoleon Street but moved to Chicago when very young), he stated that the two cities were very similar, only "the French-Canadians were our schvartzes".

I don't think he ever reflected on this. Bellow, however, was a bit more open in his support for that hierarchy.

Of the great Jewish diaspora writers of Anglo Montreal, only Leonard Cohen had a more nuanced view on this.

[kool maudit]

I do not fault Montreal Anglos of any faith for resisting the loss of Montreal as one of the Anglosphere's great cities. I also feel that loss, but recognize the loss of the French fact in North America as the greater one.

The protagonist of Michel Houllebecq's Soumission noted in passing to a Jewish friend fleeing an Islamic France, "Il n'y a pas d'Israël pour moi". Well, there is no New York for the Quebecois. A writer of Richler's stature and background should have considered this.

But we are all of our place and time.

[kool maudit]

Originally Posted by kool maudit

Of the great Jewish diaspora writers of Anglo Montreal, only Leonard Cohen had a more nuanced view on this.

As an aside, I believe the "F." and the "A_____" of Beautiful Losers contained a comment on this, although not to the exclusion of other meanings. Cohen was a Montrealer first and foremost.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by New Brisavoine

Anglo-Saxon is not a race.


Everybody can see you have conveniently avoided quoting or responding to the things AverageMonctonEnjoyr mentioned. They don't fit in your narrative. It's far easier and more comfortable to accuse other people of being evil than to look at one's own shit. As we say in French: "voir la paille dans l’œil du voisin et ne pas voir la poutre dans le sien".

I love OldDartmouthMark and MonctonRad but the heartfelt comments from AverageMonctonEnjoyr, who is very young and not Québécois or French, show that you and I are not completely off-base.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by kool maudit

Mordecai Richler famously panicked at the premises of the Quebec independence movement, publishing an article in the New Yorker (and later a book) that leaned heavily on quotations from Lionel Groulx and a fabricated folk song to say that this was something like a Nazi-style movement.

Earlier in his career, however, comparing his Montreal to Saul Bellow's Chicago (Bellow was actually born on Napoleon Street but moved to Chicago when very young), he stated that the two cities were very similar, only "the French-Canadians were our schvartzes".

I don't think he ever reflected on this. Bellow, however, was a bit more open in his support for that hierarchy.

Of the great Jewish diaspora writers of Anglo Montreal, only Leonard Cohen had a more nuanced view on this.

It's noteworthy that in common Québécois parlance Leonard Cohen is generally considered one of us whereas Mordecai Richler is not.

While it's a bit of a stretch to say he was un Québécois comme les autres, Cohen definitely understood us and got what made us tick, which explains the affection for him even in the most nationalist circles.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by kool maudit

I do not fault Montreal Anglos of any faith for resisting the loss of Montreal as one of the Anglosphere's great cities. I also feel that loss, but recognize the loss of the French fact in North America as the greater one.

The protagonist of Michel Houllebecq's Soumission noted in passing to a Jewish friend fleeing an Islamic France, "Il n'y a pas d'Israël pour moi". Well, there is no New York for the Quebecois. A writer of Richler's stature and background should have considered this.

But we are all of our place and time.

For several reasons, this post made my heart stir. It encapsulates so many things in just a few lines.

[kool maudit]

Originally Posted by MonctonRad

In any event, I am now done with this thread - this time for good.

I wonder if the SSP mods should consider just shutting the thread down permanently. It is a toxic environment.

I think we will all be fine.

[AverageMonctonEnjoyr]

Originally Posted by MonctonRad

It doesn't matter to these linguistic zealots. They are so hung up on the notion of creating political enclaves as linguistic and ethnocultural safe spaces that they ignore geopolitical and economic realities.

The worst one of course is New Brisavoine. Of course, he has no skin in the game since he is from France. He just relishes being a shit disturber. His hatred for the English language and the "Anglo-Saxon" race is such that he agitates against any form of cooperation, cohabitation or camaraderie between francophones and anglophones as he sees this as an inevitable path towards assimilation, acculturation and accommodation. It is telling that he accuses us of domination, indoctrination and gaslighting and being practitioners of the "Stockholm syndrome" against our francophone relatives, friends and neighbours. What bunk.

I guess as far as NB is concerned, the 50% of the staff of my department who are francophone are a lost cause, and are simply collaborators being led to the slaughter. I guess the minor hockey team that my eldest son coaches (which is 50% Acadian kids) should be immediately disbanded in order to protect them from assimilation. They need to be protected from anglophone influence by being made to play on French speaking teams, with Acadian coaches, and should learn that the anglo kids (former team mates) are just enemies and adversaries who they should not associate with. The two solitudes indeed.........

People like NB want to build walls and barriers. They are segregationists.

This is not my Canada.

In any event, I am now done with this thread - this time for good.

I wonder if the SSP mods should consider just shutting the thread down permanently. It is a toxic environment.

I thought he was Canadian living in france bruh ( expression of frustration used by my generation ). What’s he doing in here then ? No offense New Brisavoine but you réalise this is a Canadian forum right ?
All though you do sometimes contribute very good points so I can’t complain about that.
Also I hate having accidentally brought up the idea of an Acadian province here. I myself as an Acadian don’t want an Acadian province, and I don’t know any Acadians who want one either. We also don’t want to be separated from anglophones in our daily lives ( in sports for example ), we just want to have our own institutions ( like schools ) where french is preserved. There are plenty of separatist Quebecois but I’ve never met an Acadian one.

[AverageMonctonEnjoyr]

Originally Posted by New Brisavoine

Anglo-Saxon is not a race.


Everybody can see you have conveniently avoided quoting or responding to the things AverageMonctonEnjoyr mentioned. They don't fit in your narrative. It's far easier and more comfortable to accuse other people of being evil than to look at one's own shit. As we say in French: "voir la paille dans l’œil du voisin et ne pas voir la poutre dans le sien".

Je viens d’apprendre une nouvelle expression ! Merci !

[AverageMonctonEnjoyr]

Originally Posted by kool maudit

I think we will all be fine.

It is part of french nature to argue and complain. What’s normal for us is toxic for them

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by AverageMonctonEnjoyr

I thought he was Canadian living in france bruh ( expression of frustration used by my generation ). What’s he doing in here then ? No offense New Brisavoine but you réalise this is a Canadian forum right ?
.

I don't see how it's a problem. Go on the SSP Current Events forum and you'll find dozens of Canadians (including some who slam New Brisavoine for his interference here) commenting all day on US politics and sometimes even telling Americans either subtly or not-so-subtly how to vote.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by AverageMonctonEnjoyr

It is part of french nature to argue and complain. What’s normal for us is toxic for them

Wait a minute! I thought we didn't have an "us" vs. "them" thing going on with anglophones?

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by AverageMonctonEnjoyr

Also I hate having accidentally brought up the idea of an Acadian province here. I myself as an Acadian don’t want an Acadian province, and I don’t know any Acadians who want one either. We also don’t want to be separated from anglophones in our daily lives ( in sports for example ), we just want to have our own institutions ( like schools ) where french is preserved. There are plenty of separatist Quebecois but I’ve never met an Acadian one.

You shouldn't regret bringing up any topic, especially one that once had an official political party putting it forward.

That said, I 100% agree that the idea of an Acadian province has basically no traction among Acadians today. Even among those in 100% francophone parts of the north.