Quebec, the French Language, and Quebecois Identity

[New Brisavoine]

Originally Posted by Loco101

Indigenous peoples?!?

Few and far between.

[MolsonExport]

Originally Posted by New Brisavoine

Few and far between.

Like the 69,000 inhabitants of New France at Conquest? (spread out over 8,000,000 km2)

[kwoldtimer]

Originally Posted by New Brisavoine

Few and far between.

Plus the inhabitants of the many HBC forts and trading posts throughout the territory, plus, very shortly afterward, the offspring of the two groups.

[Acajack]

I don't dispute that these outposts in Rupert's Land existed, but does anyone know anyone who is actually descended from the people who lived there for a time?

I mean, people talk about the smallness of the French settlements in St Lawrence Valley but probably 80% of the people I know and frequent these days are descended from them. As are people like Hillary Clinton, Madonna and even Ricky Gervais.

I am directly descended from the Acadian settlements in and around Port Royal and I know tons of people descended from that specific area as well. And this doesn't include tons of people in Louisiana of course including a number of people famous in the US.

On the anglo side I've known in my life quite a few people descended from the United Empire Loyalists and also people descended from various old fishing villages in Newfoundland.

But Rupert's Land? Nope.

[MonctonRad]

Maybe amongst the Metis???

Not all Metis are descended from natives and from French trappers. There are some anglophone Metis as well...........

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by MonctonRad

Maybe amongst the Metis???

Not all Metis are descended from natives and from French trappers. There are some anglophone Metis as well...........

True, though Métis would have been there already without those trading posts and forts. Or at least the Indigenous part of their heritage anyway.

[Acajack]

And even if there are some Métis are of British-Indigenous mix, the vast vast majority are French-Indigenous. Even if the Métis today are predominantly anglophone and have lost the French language and the Michif language.

Last names of the Métis National Council leaders over the past 35 years:

Dumont
Morin
Poitras
Chartier
Caron

[MolsonExport]

Originally Posted by Acajack

I don't dispute that these outposts in Rupert's Land existed, but does anyone know anyone who is actually descended from the people who lived there for a time?

I mean, people talk about the smallness of the French settlements in St Lawrence Valley but probably 80% of the people I know and frequent these days are descended from them. As are people like Hillary Clinton, Madonna and even Ricky Gervais.

I am directly descended from the Acadian settlements in and around Port Royal and I know tons of people descended from that specific area as well. And this doesn't include tons of people in Louisiana of course including a number of people famous in the US.

On the anglo side I've known in my life quite a few people descended from the United Empire Loyalists and also people descended from various old fishing villages in Newfoundland.

But Rupert's Land? Nope.

Fair enough.

I'm directly descended from United Empire Loyalists, who's descendants are rapidly disappearing in what used to be called the Eastern Townships.

Sherbrooke? Granby? Drummondville? Victoriaville? The cities of the Eastern Townships are all now 90-95% Francophone mother tongue. The Anglos are all in the cemeteries.

[MonctonRad]

Originally Posted by MolsonExport

Sherbrooke? Granby? Drummondville? Victoriaville? The cities of the Eastern Townships are all now 90-95% Francophone mother tongue. The Anglos are all in the cemeteries.

Which is where they belong according to some fundamentalist Quebecois

There are only three types of good Anglo-Quebecers:
- a dead Anglo-Quebecer
- an assimilated Anglo-Quebecer
- an Anglo-Quebecer who has moved to Toronto.

[hipster duck]

Originally Posted by Acajack

One thing people need to understand is that French-derived cultures tend to be extremely linguistically-focused. (We're not the only ones like this BTW. It's common around the world.)

As such, francophones can sometimes be dismissive towards people who have lost their traditional language, and perceive them as having lost most or all of their identity and what makes them unique.

That's all good and fine, but the Irish people didn't abandon Gaelic.

"Abandon" suggests a majoritarian consensus to switch over to something else.
The ramifications are huge because it establishes legitimacy and the ability to consider a matter settled. With a 85% turnout, White South Africans voted to abandon Apartheid in 1992, for example.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by hipster duck

That's all good and fine, but the Irish people didn't abandon Gaelic.

"Abandon" suggests a majoritarian consensus to switch over to something else.
The ramifications are huge because it establishes legitimacy and the ability to consider a matter settled. With a 85% turnout, White South Africans voted to abandon Apartheid in 1992, for example.

I never used the word "abandoned". Someone else did.

[mousquet]

Originally Posted by New Brisavoine

In French, the word Anglo-Saxon definitely includes the Irish.

Misconception of the English-speaking world by the French, right?
The term of Anglo-Saxon actually refers to some kind of ethnicity that must be a blend of ancient Celtic and Germanic roots, something along these lines.

The Irish are actually just about as Anglo-Saxon as the Bretons in France. They're famously the descents of an ancient Celtic tribe that invented things like Halloween, that's tomorrow.

People in the US speak English, but would you seriously call them all Anglo-Saxons?
That makes no sense. I'm not even sure the Scots would be happy if you called them that name.

[MolsonExport]

The Angles and the Saxons tribes hail from Germany.



The English, like many other ethnic groups in Europe, are a bastardized tribe of people. The Normans, the Jutes (Danes), the Vikings, and other groups, along with the Angles and Saxons, contributed to the gene pool that was formerly made up of Celtic Britons and Picts.

[1overcosc]

Originally Posted by MolsonExport

The Angles and the Saxons tribes hail from Germany.

The English, like many other ethnic groups in Europe, are a bastardized tribe of people. The Normans, the Jutes (Danes), the Vikings, and other groups, along with the Angles and Saxons, contributed to the gene pool that was formerly made up of Celtic Britons and Picts.

The English are peculiar compared to other European ethnic groups in that while they are a bastardized mix like pretty much every other ethnic group on the planet, their ancestral composition was largely "fixed" by the year 1100 or so. (And when you consider that the Normans were a small influx of mostly elites, the English "peasantry" were basically fixed by the year 950 when the Scandinavian immigration stopped). These various disparate groups (Norman, Viking, Angles, Saxons, etc.) had largely coalesced into a single national culture by the year 1300 or so, and after that there was basically no migration to England until the modern era, barring some Huguenot refugees from France in the 17th century. By contrast, countries like France, Spain, Italy, etc. had plenty of continuous immigration over the 2nd millennium. France in particular had a constant flow of immigration from places like Germany, Italy, etc. all through the early modern period.

In light of that, it's kind of fascinating that the British have arguably been the most tolerant/accepting of non-European immigrants of all the modern European countries.

[1overcosc]

Another oddity of the English is their insanely high long term fertility over the 2nd millennium. Despite having little to no immigration over the period from 1100 to 1850, and a substantial emigration to colonial conquests in the later part of that period, the English population grew massively over that time period from about 2 million to about 20 million (a 10x increase). France's population by contrast went from 15 million to 35 million (not even a 3x increase) over that same time period.. and that was with the French having lots of immigration and very little colonial emigration.

[mousquet]

Originally Posted by 1overcosc

In light of that, it's kind of fascinating that the British have arguably been the most tolerant/accepting of non-European immigrants of all the modern European countries.

Oh please... That must be the reason why they're paying the French government to prevent immigrants from crossing the Channel.

France has the largest Muslim and Jewish communities of any country in Europe.
She also welcomes many impoverished immigrants who could not benefit from any education in their countries run by nasty dictators.
She has to deal with all those greater challenges.

Meanwhile, immigration in the UK, Canada, Australia and even the US to some extent is highly selective.
They want the skilled educated workforce from other countries only. Oh yes, they're tolerant if you're a graduate from a prestigious higher education establishment.
But if you come from Nigeria and can hardly count to 10, you may go f^ck yourself, right?

[Acajack]

The early-20s French (from France) significant other of one of my kids, referred to anyone white and anglophone as "Anglo-Saxons". This included Anglo-Canadians and Americans, and I can only assume the Irish as well.

My guess is that this is more of linguistic and cultural portemanteau term, than something related to specific ethnic origins.

[harls]

Originally Posted by Acajack

The early-20s French (from France) significant other of one of my kids, referred to anyone white and anglophone as "Anglo-Saxons". This included Anglo-Canadians and Americans, and I can only assume the Irish as well.

My guess is that this is more of linguistic and cultural portemanteau term, than something related to specific ethnic origins.

NB uses 'Anglo-Saxon' in the same spirit as someone with my roots would use 'Frog'.

[ToxiK]

Originally Posted by MonctonRad

Which is where they belong according to some fundamentalist Quebecois

Which ones?

[New Brisavoine]

Originally Posted by mousquet

People in the US speak English, but would you seriously call them all Anglo-Saxons?

Everybody does. That French usage has largely spread in the Spanish-speaking world ("Anglosajones"), and now even in the Anglophone world.