Quebec, the French Language, and Quebecois Identity

[kool maudit]

Originally Posted by lio45

That’s the “Saskatchewan sees itself as a Nation, therefore everyone must agree that it’s one” argument…?

Since when is one’s own opinion the key factor? If I think I’m smart but everyone else thinks I’m dumb, am I smart or am I dumb? You say the former; I say the latter…

That's actually precisely how that works, there are just extra steps. First, Saskatchewan sees itself as a nation. Then, it organizes around that principle and develops a separatist movement. Then, it either succeeds or fails with that (this step has lots of violence and chaos and can last hundreds of years), and if it's the former, recognition follows.

Again, what thread are we in?

There is a specific history with the British Empire here that is being wildly elided and I don't get it. The Irish actually did what many Quebecers want to do 103 years ago... and here we are calling them Brits? Parnell > Parizeau!

[kool maudit]

I had always thought there was a sense of common cause between Quebec and the Catalans, the Scots etc... and I assumed the Irish before them. Instead this baffling insult! I mean, I'm not Irish so I don't care but that is definitely how it would be received. Is this like some bad blood from Griffintown and the Point?

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by kool maudit

I had always thought there was a sense of common cause between Quebec and the Catalans, the Scots etc... and I assumed the Irish before them. Instead this baffling insult! I mean, I'm not Irish so I don't care but that is definitely how it would be received. Is this like some bad blood from Griffintown and the Point?

Oh there definitely is a lot of mutual sympathy, and basically no one in Quebec would deny that these peoples or nations legitimately exist.

On parle pour parler, c'est tout.

We're just discussing for discussion's sake.

I wouldn't read too much into it.

[YOWetal]

Originally Posted by kool maudit

I had always thought there was a sense of common cause between Quebec and the Catalans, the Scots etc... and I assumed the Irish before them. Instead this baffling insult! I mean, I'm not Irish so I don't care but that is definitely how it would be received. Is this like some bad blood from Griffintown and the Point?

There is small nation solidarity but Scots and Irish in Quebec formed part of the English oppressors for the most part. They were anglophones. Not sure why it is that complicated. This is pretty universal truth.

[hipster duck]

Originally Posted by new brisavoine

the [irish] ditched their own language and adopted the english language though. It's as if the finns had abandoned the finnish language and became all swedish speakers.

wtf?

[Acajack]

Keeping in mind also that in the context of Canadian discussions, I at least tend to think of it in terms of Irish immigration to Canada a century or a century and a half ago.

In which case it does make some sense to occasionally lump the Irish, Scots and English (and I guess Welsh) together given that I don't see much historical evidence that the Irish in the longer term particularly kept to themselves and shunned the English and Scots for stuff like marriage and friendships. Except maybe for Newfoundland and in Quebec where at least some Irish integrated with the francophones due to religious reasons.

You obviously still have many Irish Canadians today who are proud of that identity but they typically also have English and Scots ancestry in their family tree. Irish is just the cool ethnicity to play up. Scottish ancestry is also considered more cool than English by that same token, so that gets played up too. Oh the poor English!

Of course, all of this only applies to Canada (though probably the US and Australia too).

I assume experiences and opinions can vary considerably over there on those Isles...

[YOWetal]

Originally Posted by New Brisavoine

They ditched their own language and adopted the English language though. It's as if the Finns had abandoned the Finnish language and became all Swedish speakers.

And the Republic of Ireland is aligned with the UK in many ways than not. All of their street and road signage and markings is essentially British. You'd imagine you're somewhere in the English midlands when you're in an Irish city. Recently I even discovered to my amazement that one of their top public authority is still British headquartered in London (can't remember which it is now, perhaps the quango overseeing their public television). Can you imagine a major public body regulating part of Canadian life being a US administration in Washington DC??

Abandoned? You mean assimilated?

A lot more of French life is regulated from Brussels than Irish life in London.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by hipster duck

wtf?

One thing people need to understand is that French-derived cultures tend to be extremely linguistically-focused. (We're not the only ones like this BTW. It's common around the world.)

As such, francophones can sometimes be dismissive towards people who have lost their traditional language, and perceive them as having lost most or all of their identity and what makes them unique.

I do know that that's not the case and that there are oodles of examples that it isn't, but what can I say - it's a world-view that francophones have.

Just as an example, here in Canada it would be really weird for someone who is of French Canadian ancestry but doesn't speak French (or even speaks it very haltingly) and knows little about the culture, to claim that they are "one of us".

And people know this, perhaps almost intuitively. As it's very very rare to find native English speakers in Canada of French Canadian origin who identify with Quebec, French Canada or their local francophone community in any way.

They are in fact among the most likely to refer to themselves as unhyphenated Canadians, point final.

(BTW, in case I got anyone worried the "us" is in fact open to people of all origins provided they speak the language and have some knowledge of the culture and integration with it. As evidenced by one entire side of my family, and Lio's probably as well for what I know of it.)

[YOWetal]

Originally Posted by Acajack

One thing people need to understand is that French-derived cultures tend to be extremely linguistically-focused. (We're not the only ones like this BTW. It's common around the world.)

As such, francophones can sometimes be dismissive towards people who have lost their traditional language, and perceive them as having lost most or all of their identity and what makes them unique.

I do know that that's not the case and that there are oodles of examples that it isn't, but what can I say - it's a world-view that francophones have.

Just as an example, here in Canada it would be really weird for someone who is of French Canadian ancestry but doesn't speak French (or even speaks it very haltingly) and knows little about the culture, to claim that they are "one of us".

And people know this, perhaps almost intuitively. As it's very very rare to find native English speakers in Canada of French Canadian origin who identify with Quebec, French Canada or their local francophone community in any way.

They are in fact among the most likely to refer to themselves as unhyphenated Canadians, point final.

(BTW, in case I got anyone worried the "us" is in fact open to people of all origins provided they speak the language and have some knowledge of the culture and integration with it. As evidenced by one entire side of my family, and Lio's probably as well for what I know of it.)

This is all very astute. Especially the first two sentences which are really underestimated. I know the whining from Anglophones in Quebec negates a lot of what I will say next as does the absolute refusal of many anglophone "expats" to integrate linguistically to where they live but I think in general Anglophones in Canada have no real attachment to our language. If lived in China with a Chinese wife I wouldn't care if my kids maintained their language. Other than it's extreme usefulness which I guess seems like a cop out to those who see language jingoism. But for those of us with Norwegian or whatever last names English is just the most useful and most efficient languages so it's kind of like what Esparanto was supposed to be. Some care about being very precise with the written or spoken word so decry the sort of dumbing down you get in Northern Europe but we can forget that language is the key to all culture.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by YOWetal

This is all very astute. Especially the first two sentences which are really underestimated. I know the whining from Anglophones in Quebec negates a lot of what I will say next as does the absolute refusal of many anglophone "expats" to integrate linguistically to where they live but I think in general Anglophones in Canada have no real attachment to our language. If lived in China with a Chinese wife I wouldn't care if my kids maintained their language. Other than it's extreme usefulness which I guess seems like a cop out to those who see language jingoism. But for those of us with Norwegian or whatever last names English is just the most useful and most efficient languages so it's kind of like what Esparanto was supposed to be. Some care about being very precise with the written or spoken word so decry the sort of dumbing down you get in Northern Europe but we can forget that language is the key to all culture.

To be honest if I lived in China or Australia or even the US I might not even feel that much different from you. (In this sense, I recognize I may be a tad different from many francophones.)

But in Canada, it's a different story.

All my life I've been told and even harangued that Canada is our home and that we have everything we need here for our culture to survive and that this country has done everything humanly possible to ensure we feel at home and continue to exist as francophone peoples. And that we had to absolutely resist the swan song of independence which is at best a useless folly (given how great Canada has bent over backwards to make things so great for us) and at worst a crypto-racist retrenchment project.

So yeah, given the propaganda I do fully expect to be able to raise francophone kids and grandkids in Canada. And if doesn't work out, in my book it's not just "on me".

[New Brisavoine]

Originally Posted by hipster duck

wtf?

Kool maudit would get the reference. Not you apparently. You have to learn more about Swedish history.

[New Brisavoine]

Originally Posted by YOWetal

A lot more of French life is regulated from Brussels than Irish life in London.

At a cultural level, no. London has an impact in Ireland that Brussels never had and never will have in France (in fact it's France that has a cultural influence in Brussels). It's simply not comparable.

[YOWetal]

Originally Posted by New Brisavoine

At a cultural level, no. London has an impact in Ireland that Brussels never had and never will have in France (in fact it's France that has a cultural influence in Brussels). It's simply not comparable.

For sure. But English Canada very much is controlled culturally by New York and LA. The thing is sure it's a lot less but Quebec is more than it is by Paris as well.

[New Brisavoine]

Originally Posted by YOWetal

For sure. But English Canada very much is controlled culturally by New York and LA.

That's why many people doubt the ROC would remain as an independent country separate from the US if Québec seceded.

[New Brisavoine]

Anyway, I've watched a fascinating (or not so fascinating, maybe I was just bored) documentary about Kamala Harris and Donald Trump on French TV tonight, a US documentary (dubbed in French, if you want to know everything). I thought I would tell you because they mentioned Kamala Harris's time in Montréal (it was a documentary showing all their lives from childhood until now), and I thought their presentation of her time in Montréal was quite... particular.

Keep in mind it's a US documentary, not a French one. So first they insisted on how COLD Montréal is, complete with scenes of blizzard and snow falls in Montréal. They wanted to illustrate what an alienating experience it had been for her to be transplanted in Montréal, and how it made her grow. So super COOOOLD. Also, a FOREIGN land, and when they said "foreign land" they showed pictures of... French-language street signs in Montréal. Also, they said it was "moving to an all-White society". I thought that would make you chuckle a bit considering where Canada is at now.

They also said that Kamala Harris went to French-language school in Montréal, but they did not mention that she actually stayed there for barely a few days and immediately switched to an English-language school. So you'd leave the documentary thinking she must speak very good French having been schooled in French...

Overall, the impression was that Montréal looked really cold, snowy, and was kind of dull with all those white people, plus oh-my-God so foreign with all those signs not even in English!!

[YOWetal]

Originally Posted by New Brisavoine

Anyway, I've watched a fascinating (or not so fascinating, maybe I was just bored) documentary about Kamala Harris and Donald Trump on French TV tonight, a US documentary (dubbed in French, if you want to know everything). I thought I would tell you because they mentioned Kamala Harris's time in Montréal (it was a documentary showing all their lives from childhood until now), and I thought their presentation of her time in Montréal was quite... particular.

Keep in mind it's a US documentary, not a French one. So first they insisted on how COLD Montréal is, complete with scenes of blizzard and snow falls in Montréal. They wanted to illustrate what an alienating experience it had been for her to be transplanted in Montréal, and how it made her grow. So super COOOOLD. Also, a FOREIGN land, and when they said "foreign land" they showed pictures of... French-language street signs in Montréal. Also, they said it was "moving to an all-White society". I thought that would make you chuckle a bit considering where Canada is at now.

They also said that Kamala Harris went to French-language school in Montréal, but they did not mention that she actually stayed there for barely a few days and immediately switched to an English-language school. So you'd leave the documentary thinking she must speak very good French having been schooled in French...

Overall, the impression was that Montréal looked really cold, snowy, and was kind of dull with all those white people, plus oh-my-God so foreign with all those signs not even in English!!

Seems pretty accurate to arriving in 1976 Montreal. I guess as a US politician you have to downplay it. (She probably worked at McDonalds in Montreal which is why she doesn't mention it again) but 12-18 are some of your most formative years.

[lio45]

Originally Posted by kool maudit

That's actually precisely how that works, there are just extra steps. First, Saskatchewan sees itself as a nation. Then, it organizes around that principle and develops a separatist movement. Then, it either succeeds or fails with that (this step has lots of violence and chaos and can last hundreds of years), and if it's the former, recognition follows.

Sure, and Saskatchewan right now hasn't gotten past Step 1 -- and likely never will. I'd reserve the use of the term for nations that have achieved at the very least Step 2 + some international recognition.

[lio45]

Originally Posted by kool maudit

Again, what thread are we in?

There is a specific history with the British Empire here that is being wildly elided and I don't get it. The Irish actually did what many Quebecers want to do 103 years ago... and here we are calling them Brits? Parnell > Parizeau!

Originally Posted by kool maudit

I had always thought there was a sense of common cause between Quebec and the Catalans, the Scots etc... and I assumed the Irish before them. Instead this baffling insult! I mean, I'm not Irish so I don't care but that is definitely how it would be received. Is this like some bad blood from Griffintown and the Point?

Not meant to be an insult at all. You can secede from the UK but you can't get away from being in the British Isles. The Welsh and the Scots and the Northern Irish are British too, whether or not they're in a political union with the English / governed from London.

If there was a geographical term for today's Canada, then the Québécois would be that, and they would STILL be that post-sovereignty. (The closest to this would be to point out that the Québécois are North Americans.)

[Ozabald]

Originally Posted by YOWetal

Seems pretty accurate to arriving in 1976 Montreal. I guess as a US politician you have to downplay it. (She probably worked at McDonalds in Montreal which is why she doesn't mention it again) but 12-18 are some of your most formative years.

Likely as a child of a foreign national individual working in Canada, Harris would have not be eligible for a Canadian work permit as a minor.

[Loco101]

Originally Posted by New Brisavoine

Nobody lived there. It was purely a commercial enterprise, similar to the French fisheries in Newfoundland.

Indigenous peoples?!?